A Dynamic Career at the Intersection of Law and Tech

Tyler Podcast Episode 88, Transcript

Our Tyler Technologies podcast explores a wide range of complex, timely, and important issues facing communities and the public sector. Expect approachable tech talk mixed with insights from subject matter experts and a bit of fun. Each episode highlights the people, places, and technology making a difference. Give the podcast a listen today and subscribe.

Episode Notes

On this episode, Tyler's Media Relations Manager, Rikki Ragland is joined by Tyler's Chief Legal Officer, Abby Diaz.

Drawing from her wealth of experience working in law and technology, Abby Diaz provides insights into the evolving landscape of legal operations within the tech industry. In this special episode celebrating Women's History Month, Abby underscores the critical role of diversity, mentorship, and perseverance in navigating historically male-dominated spaces. She delves into how her career journey has been shaped by these principles, shedding light on the transformative power of inclusive practices in driving innovation and progress. Tune in to gain valuable perspectives on how fostering diversity, overcoming challenges, and championing equality are beneficial to the workforce.

We also highlight National County Government Month, which takes place this April. This annual celebration gives counties an opportunity to showcase their programs and raise public awareness of the many services they provide to their residents.

Learn more about the topics discussed in this episode with these resources:

• Tyler Technologies & NACo: Modernized Systems from a Connected County
• Additional Resources for Counties
• Blog: Is it Time for Your County to Move to the Cloud?
• Blog: Women in Cybersecurity See Positive Growth
• Podcast: Leading Change: Women in Cybersecurity

And you can listen to other episodes of the podcast at this link: www.tylertech.com/resources/podcast

Let us know what you think about the Tyler Tech Podcast in this survey!

Transcript

Abby Diaz: I think evolving to a place where we, and I mean, like, the “royal we” recognize that there is more to life outside of work and that is okay. And in fact, it's more than okay, it's good.

And that it doesn't matter if the thing that exists for you outside of work is children, or your pets, or your parents, or your tee time, or your artistic interests, but that you have that exterior life, I think is a huge breakthrough, honestly, for women.

Josh Henderson: From Tyler Technologies, it's The Tyler Tech Podcast. Your source for insightful conversations with thought leaders addressing the pressing issues in our communities.

I'm Josh Henderson, and I'm on the corporate marketing team here at Tyler. Thanks for joining us.

In each episode, we dive into the essential topics shaping our society and shed light on the individuals, places, and technologies empowering the public sector. If you like what you hear, please consider giving a five-star rating and review, subscribing on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and recommending the show to others.

And we are so excited to announce that this March, we're bringing you discussions in celebration of Women's History Month. Over the next few episodes, we'll be featuring conversations with some amazing women, exploring their career journeys, their insights into the tech industry and the public sector, as well as the importance of diversity and equality and ongoing challenges in the workforce.

On today's episode, Tyler's Media Relations Manager, Rikki Ragland talks with Tyler's Chief Legal Officer, Abby Diaz, for a career-spanning conversation.

Abby details how she ended up in the tech space, the unique challenges she has dealt with navigating historically male-dominated industries, and the importance of mentorship and championing colleagues.

So, without further ado, here's the conversation between Rikki Ragland and Abby Diaz. We hope you enjoy.

Rikki Ragland: I am very excited to talk with Abby Diaz, Tyler's Chief Legal Officer, today. And Abby, you have had quite a career, especially in the legal industry, can you share with me just a little bit about your journey in tech and touch on how you came to decide on pursuing this career path?

Abby Diaz: It was all completely by accident, Rikki.

I started off at a law firm working out of its office in New York City and happened to hit it off with an attorney who was few years my senior, and he happened to specialize in IP litigation, intellectual property litigation. And so, the first big case I worked on was a case for Honeywell on patent infringement of one of those monitors that sit on the front of the airplane and tell the pilot whether or not it needs to lift the nose of the plane up. So, in working with him on that case, I just started generating a little bit of a rolodex of IP cases, which I am, was, completely ill-equipped to do and I remain completely ill-equipped at most technology. My children are my in-house IT team, but I got to Tyler, not, I'm sorry to say this, Tyler, because it was a tech company, but because I knew a lot of people that worked here and knew of it as a great place to work.

And for a lot of reasons, found my way to a part-time job on the contracts team as it had existed then, that just fit where I was in my life with very young, I had a newborn and a toddler at the time. And so, it was a lot of just life and fit that brought me to Tyler, and got me to put my foot in the door and the rest is kind of the coincidence of history.

Rikki Ragland: I can also imagine that as the only woman or one of the few women in your industry or in your law firms along the way and especially transitioning over to Tyler as well, that you have faced some unique challenges, or you've seen other colleagues facing unique challenges who are women. Can you talk about some of those challenges that you have had to deal with as a woman in the tech industry?

Abby Diaz: Yeah. I would emphasize that my experience throughout my law career has been very lucky or fortunate, whatever the right word is, that I have always felt supported and sometimes even championed. And so, I feel very, very lucky. But in any career, in any life, there are inevitably challenges. I have certainly faced my fair share of those as we all do.

When I look back though and think about which of those were probably uniquely attributed to the fact that I was a woman and also a young woman. I sound young, I used to look young, and I was young. I think that I still felt initially discounted and overlooked, usually with people that I didn't work with. So, literally the people on the other side of the table, were the people doing that to me.

And I even attended a meeting once during my time at Tyler. When I think I was Chief Legal Officer by this time, but if not, I was Associate General Counsel, so relatively senior. And it was a dispute resolution meeting with a client that was giving us a really hard time, and I was attending the meeting with two Tyler peers who were both men. They were for the business, I was for legal, and the client leader said in response to kind of my opening argument, my opening salvo.

He kind of put his hand out to me and looked down the table at the two men sitting next to me and said, “I'd prefer to have a man-to-man conversation,” and then proceeded to make his argument to them. And that was really hard because I didn't know if I should call him out in front of his colleagues, and mine, in this meeting for what he had just done, which I found incredibly rude and condescending, or if there was enough tension already that I didn't need to make a personal slight, something that came to predominate what was a professional impasse. And so, I chose not to say anything in the moment.

One of my colleagues recognized how tough that moment was. And soon after, asked if we could just take a break. He played it off very graciously and didn't make it obvious that it was so that I could collect myself, but we did go into a breakout room. And I was sweating.

I was really, really mad and vented with the two of them when we went back in and finished the meeting. But, I obviously, still remember that. I'm using it as an example of a challenge I faced. And I think that, for better or worse, that still continues to exist at some level for a lot of women, and I think that that's unfortunate.

Rikki Ragland: I was just about to ask you because I was about to touch on that same point that it's still happening with women. And especially in a male-dominated industry, even though women are coming in somewhat by the masses, but still a male-dominated industry. And for women who are sitting in the position that you were sitting in, where they're sitting at the table, and they're being discounted and they're not sure should I say something or should I not? What advice do you have for women who are in that position?

Abby Diaz: My advice is to be okay with feeling like this is a really hard, tough situation because it is. There is no single right answer for what to do in that moment or even after.

But if I'm going to try to be more concrete, I would say, read the room, as best you can. It is not a failure, I don't think, to hold back. So, I guess I'm trying to reassure self with this very advice. And at the end of the day, you have to do the thing that makes you feel most comfortable with yourself.

And if being, I don't really like this word, but I'm going to use it. If being strident or being very reactive in the moment and kind of pounding your fist on the table is not you, don't do it. Just because you feel like you should do it because you’ve got to protect womanhood.

You don't.

Do what makes you feel most comfortable and most satisfied or that you think will make you feel most comfortable, most satisfied with yourself when you inevitably look back on this moment in one minute, one hour, you know, and extending out from there.

Rikki Ragland: And you, which I think is really great advice for women who some women who are consistently going through those hurdles, you know, of trying to have a place at the table and then to be heard at the table once they're there. And you mentioned that people championed for you.

How do you think we as women need a champion for one another to help change how the tech industry looks right now? How do we make it more inclusive? How do we make this a more diverse environment, in addition to bringing more women in, but more women of color or other diversity into this industry?

Abby Diaz: I'm so glad you asked that question because as soon as I stopped talking, I realized there was another piece of advice I'd want to share. So, the thing I would say that I think can expand the table for women in the tech industry is to be a network for each other. And if you have already, air quotes "broken through" into the industry, be a network of one, if that's all there is, to whoever is coming in, again, air quotes, "behind you." Because I think that if we can be sounding boards for each other, we can do a lot.

And I want to emphasize, one of the ways women can be sounding boards for each other is to say, you're perceiving something that I don't think is there in this particular moment. And so, you can be a reality check and a gut check. But then you can also say, you're right.

That sounds terrible or that sounds like it went terribly.

I am so sorry. Vent everything at me. Swear, cry, tell me how terrible it was.

Let let's have at it. Go for it. Now let's figure out what you're going to do. And let's figure out how I can help you.

Either behind the scenes, because you want to come cry after you do whatever you're about to go do or standing shoulder to shoulder with you. So being a support network to each other, I think, is really, really important. Equally important, I think, is being each other's cheerleaders.

And as part of that, think it means you can't hog the limelight because you feel like there's some scarcity of recognition.

We have to be comfortable with an, with the idea that I can succeed, Rikki, you can succeed. And if 7000 women are sitting around us, each one of them can succeed too, there are not, success is not limited to two spots or, you know, pick some other arbitrary number. So, one of the things that I tried to do, frankly, it's not just with women, but certainly I am thoughtful about it with women is to say, I am saying something right now, but the work that got me to these words was done by Jill and Jane and Jackie. You know, serve up the successes of people who otherwise might not be getting the spotlight so that someday they're getting the spotlight, and they can turn around and do the same thing.

Rikki Ragland: And it sounds like there would be a really great extension to this support network, like what you're saying, serve up. It kind of lends itself to mentorship as well. And there's peer-to-peer mentoring, and then obviously there's mentoring outside of the industry or mentoring within the industry and reaching back. So, can we talk just a little bit about mentorships and role models? And just the importance of that in addition to having a support system. Where do you think mentors fit in in helping women in the tech industry?

Abby Diaz: So, I think they're huge.

I happen to believe that the best mentorships grow organically, and I believe that because I speak to it from experience. So, I was at my firm's New York City office, and then I moved to that same firm's Washington DC office. And each of those offices through luck or and probably some combination of other things, I had a distinct mentor in each of those. I mentioned one. He was the one that roped me into IP litigation, and I happened to fall in with another partner in the Washington DC office who brought me in on an ERISA case, which was the worst kind of law case to have to try and defend, but he was wonderful. And I really benefited from the fact that I had such close working relationships with each one of them. I also have colleagues who have been role models and incredible partners to me and who really have made all the difference as I try to figure myself out as I try to figure my career out and as I try to figure out how best to try to lead this team.

Josh Henderson: Stay tuned. We'll be right back with more of The Tyler Tech Podcast.

Jade Champion: I hope you're enjoying listening to this episode of The Tyler Tech Podcast My name is Jade Champion, and I'm here with Dani McArthur to tell you about a group that plays a huge role in our communities, county governments.

Dani McArthur: That's right, Jade. And we wanted to let our listeners know that April is National County Government Month.

Jade Champion: And April is just around the corner. So, what can you tell us about this month and why it's so important?

Dani McArthur: This annual celebration gives counties the opportunity to highlight their programs and raise public awareness of the many services they provide to their residents.

Jade Champion: I also know that Tyler works closely with local government leaders and organizations like the National Association of Counties and the International City and County Management Association. But how exactly does Tyler collaborate with these county governments?

Dani McArthur: Great question. Tyler offers solutions that modernize systems for local governments, empowering counties to create healthy, vibrant, and safe communities. For additional information and links to resources, please check out our show notes for more.

Jade Champion: That's great. We'll also have some county-focused sessions planned for our attendees at our annual Tyler Connect user conference in Indianapolis in May. We hope to see you there. Now let's get back to The Tyler Tech Podcast.

Rikki Ragland: I think one of the really significant things you just said was I've had colleagues that have been mentors as well. And I think that is really important for other women to hear, that this organic mentorship isn't necessarily somebody who is above you, but somebody who is right across the table from you that makes just as big of an impact.

Abby Diaz: Yeah. I use this phrase all the time, gut check.

I have found that it is so helpful when, sometimes I wonder if this is distinct to the lawyers at Tyler, but I have to imagine this kind of thing exists for everyone. You're struggling with a really complex problem and there's no obvious answer.

And so, you can really live in your head, especially as the decision gets more and more kind of serious and meaningful more for more and more people at Tyler and beyond.

It has been so helpful to me to be brave enough to say, I don't know exactly what we should do. Here's what I'm thinking.

How does this hit you? Tell me where I'm wrong. Tell me what I'm missing.

Actually, now that I've said it out loud to you, I hate what I was thinking of doing. I'm actually going to do x. Does x sound better? Yes, Abby, x sounds better. To have someone that I can go to and have those types of conversations and know they're not judging me or thinking like, how in the heck does she have her job if she can't even figure out how to answer this question, has been such a relief, really, such a huge relief. Not to mention certainly reassuring and ultimately productive and good for Tyler.

Rikki Ragland: No. That's very true, because you're not expected to have all of the answers when you come to the table, which is what makes us so collaborative here, that there are strengths and weaknesses in all of us, and we can fit together like a puzzle.

And I think that really makes a big difference, especially again, as we look at women in technology.

And giving new women, you know, who are, or I shouldn't say new women. Given women who are new to the industry, that empowerment to say you're not expected to come with all of the knowledge.

You're expected to fit into this piece. And that's probably been some of the success of the evolution of women in tech. And I wanted to ask you what you have seen in terms of how we have evolved in the tech industry during your time in the tech industry?

Abby Diaz: Well, I think that one of the biggest ways we've changed that's most meaningful to women is we are not, I don't think, as strict or place as high a value on proving you're good at your job just because you do it a lot, meaning you're not constantly burning the candle at both ends, and that's the yardstick for whether or not you're a good employee.

I think evolving to a place where we, and I mean, like, the “royal we” recognize that there is more to life outside of work and that that is okay. And in fact, it's more than okay. It's good.

And that it doesn't matter if the thing that exists for you outside of work is children, or your pets, or your parents, or your tee time, or your artistic interests, but that you have that exterior life, I think is a huge breakthrough, honestly, for women. And, I guess, especially for women that think about having a family because they don't have to hide that part of their aspiration.

When I first started working, it was a little bit faux pas to still, to pretend like your life outside of certainly the law firm existed. I feel completely different about that now.

I hope it's not just because of the privilege of my position on an org chart, and it, and that it's really because our culture has shifted. And with that hope and belief, I think that that's a huge sea change for women trying to enter an industry that was very bro-y and very 24/7. And if you weren't, you know, chugging coffee 24/7, you were weak and somehow not contributing.

Rikki Ragland: I have two more questions for you. The first one is, what is the best advice you have been given in your career?

Abby Diaz: It's a really good question, Rikki. I don't know if it was articulated to me this way, but I think the best advice or reassurance I've received is, basically, it's okay. And I heard those words when I was having, you know, any one of a number of low moments I could think back to when I felt like, I am so overwhelmed because I have so much work. Or I'm so overwhelmed because I don't know how to solve this problem that's sitting there in front of me, or I feel so responsible because I think I just did something that wasn't good. Either the work product wasn't good or the result I just drove was not good. And normally, I would express that through tears, and the person sitting with me or listening to me over the phone was basically saying to me, it's okay.

It's okay. This is not, we're not performing surgery here. No one's life is on the table. It's okay. You're okay. It's going to be okay.

Let's figure out next steps. And just that, like, kind of settling reassurance, really meant a lot to me all the time, and it's now something I imbue, I hope, into any type of feedback I give to someone, whether they're on my team or not, when they feel nervous about where they are or something that they've done.

Rikki Ragland: And that actually leads me to my last question for you, which is, what advice do you now pass on to other women who are coming into tech or who are already in the tech industry?

Abby Diaz: Well, I can't say it's okay because I just gave that answer, but I think the biggest advice I would give to anyone, I don't care what you're doing and where you're doing it, is when you think about career, don't give yourself the weight of thinking about it as a straight line. It ebbs and flows, let yourself be surprised, take two steps forward only to take one step back.

It is a very, if you're lucky, your career is going to be a very long story, and it's not defined by a single page and a single chapter. And I hope that that gives freedom and peace of mind.

And, frankly, an ability to focus on the task at hand and do that well rather than worrying about how do I plot my next move in this very carefully devised plan I think I'm hacking for my life so that it looks really perfect on a piece of paper. I recommend against doing that. I recommend taking care of today, tomorrow will take care of itself, and it might take care of itself in a way that doesn't feel like progress, but it is.

Rikki Ragland: That is great advice. I want to thank you so much again. I've been talking to Abby Diaz, Tyler's Chief Legal Officer, appreciate you joining us on the Tyler podcast for Women's History Month. Thank you.

Abby Diaz: Thank you so much for having me. My pleasure.

Josh Henderson: And that's it for today's episode.

Many thanks to Abby Diaz and Rikki Ragland for the great conversation.

Advancing equity and inclusion for women in the workforce is essential for fostering a diverse and dynamic public sector. Embracing gender diversity not only promotes fairness and equality, but also unlocks a wealth of untapped talent and perspectives. By providing equal opportunities for women, public sector agencies can harness the full potential of their workforce. From leadership positions, to technical roles, ensuring gender equity cultivates an environment where innovation flourishes, and government services are more effectively delivered to all residents.

Tyler Technologies creates solutions made for the public sector and has experts with government experience ready to support you on your journey.

I hope you're excited about what the future holds and will reach out to us at podcast@tylertech.com to connect with a subject matter effort if you'd like to learn more.

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Fill out our audience survey in the show notes today to let us know how you heard about the show and your ideas for future episodes.

And don't forget to leave a rating and review wherever you get your podcasts. For Tyler Technologies, I'm Josh Henderson. Thanks for joining The Tyler Tech Podcast.