Bonus Episode: Teacher Teaches the Enneagram, Part 1

Tyler Podcast Episode 10, Transcript

Our Tyler Technologies podcast explores a wide range of complex, timely, and important issues facing communities and the public sector. Expect approachable tech talk mixed with insights from subject matter experts and a bit of fun. Host and content marketing director Jeff Harrell – and other guest hosts – highlights the people, places, and technology making a difference. Give us listen today and subscribe.

Episode Summary

Get an advanced lesson from teacher and Enneagram experts, Joey Schewee, daughter of Suzanne Stabile (author of the Enneagram gold standard book, "Road Back to You"). Learn how the Enneagram can be used in team environments to increase communication and productivity.

Transcript

Joey Schewee: Enneagram number is the one personality typing system out there, it's the only one I know of that types you based on your motivation, not your behavior. Every other system out there: StrengthsFinder, Myers Briggs, DiSC, Colors, all of those are great, they all have their place, but they type you based on your behavior. Enneagram is unique in that it types you based on motivation.

Jeff Harrell: From Tyler Technologies, it's the Tyler Tech Podcast, where we talk about issues facing communities today, and do so in a way that's hopefully both entertaining and enlightening. I'm your host, Jeff Harrell. I'm the director of content marketing here at Tyler Technologies, and we've got a really special bonus episode today.

If you work in a team environment, if you work with people, you engage with people if you're part of a family, I think this episode's really going to help you. We're going to talk about the Enneagram. You may have heard about the Enneagram, it's very popular right now. Maybe you've never heard about it and you want to learn more, or you have, and you want to learn more, we've got a great episode for you today.

We've got Joey Schewee here. Joey is a teacher, she's an administrator, she's also an expert on the Enneagram. She happens to be the daughter of Suzanne Stabile, who wrote the book "The Road Back to You," and is one of the world's most leading experts in the Enneagram. I think you're going to find this episode very practical, really interesting. It's like a PhD level class on the Enneagram. Without further ado, here is my conversation with Joey Schewee.

Joey Schewee, thanks for joining us. We're super excited to have you.

Joey Schewee: I'm glad to be here.

Jeff Harrell: I know you're a teacher. At Tyler, we absolutely love teachers. Tell us a little bit about your teaching background.

Joey Schewee: So, I am, since we're talking about Enneagram, this will make a lot more sense in a few minutes. I'm an Eight in the Enneagram, and I was an English major in college, and everyone thought I was going to be a teacher. They said, "Oh, you're going to teach." And I said, "Oh, absolutely not." That was the furthest from my mind. I came from a long line of preachers and teachers and coaches, and I wanted to conquer the corporate world. And I actually landed a job out of college that my parents called the Disneyland job. And I was working for an investment firm in Dallas, three years in, I was miserable because I didn't feel like I was... When you come from a long line of teachers and preachers and coaches, you have a tendency to want to make a difference in the world, and I was making none.

Jeff Harrell: It's in your blood, I'm sure.

Joey Schewee: Yeah, it is. So, three years into that, I was approached by a family friend who had a connect at Bishop Dunne Catholic High School in Oak Cliff, outside of Dallas, to help with their tennis program. So I played tennis in high school and college, jumped at the chance and never looked back. One year in, they offered me a teaching job, and I happily left investments behind. In that year, I cut my salary in half and doubled my workload and had never been happier.

Jeff Harrell: And you're just making different kinds of investments now, I suppose.

Joey Schewee: Exactly, exactly. So I made my way, I was at Bishop Dunne for two more years, and made my way to John Paul II High School, when it opened in Plano in 2005. That's been just a tremendous experience. I was in the classroom for five years, and I've been in charge of our Admissions office for the last 10, and in the last two years added Alumni and Advancement both. So I am now running three offices, essentially all revenue that runs through J.P. II is under my purview.

Jeff Harrell: That's great. Awesome. And we're going to talk about Enneagram today. Enneagram has gotten really popular recently, but you've actually been studying it for quite a long time. How were you introduced to the Enneagram?

Joey Schewee: So, when you look up Enneagram, if it's new for you, or if you're familiar with it, then you are very familiar with Suzanne Stabile. She is my mother. And so, when I was 19 years old, Jeff, I will be 42 next week, and so I've known this for a very long time. When I was 19, I was introduced to it. That's when my mom was starting to work with it. And it's been an invaluable tool. I met my husband in college, so he learned it at the same time. So we've known it our entire adult life, our entire married life. And we have two sons who are 14 and 11, and he and I actually jointly teach and work with Enneagram and parenting.

The Enneagram and Kids

Jeff Harrell: That's awesome. And I do have a question about that. Can you identify an Enneagram number to children? How old can they be to really kind of identify what that number is, and does it change as you get older?

Joey Schewee: Great question. Your Enneagram number does not change. So you're born your number my mom actually believes you are... She's had a lot of questions over the years of how much is nature and how much is nurture. Right? How much is of your number are you born with, how much are you predisposed to, and how much is in your environment? She believes that you're born your number. I deviate from her just a little in my 23 years of knowing it. I actually believe you're born into a stance, and that your environment kind of shapes your number from there. And I'm going to talk about stances as I kind of talk about the numbers when you and I move forward in this podcast. Your number does not change.

In terms of identifying your child, same thing. You have to kind of identify, you have to self-identify. Now, when I go and teach kind of an introductory, day-long workshop, I decided a long time ago to stop telling people not to type the people in their lives, because you won't be able not to. I just ask everybody to hold out that they might be incorrect, because the Enneagram number is the one personality typing system out there, it's the only one that I know of, that types you based on your motivation, not your behavior.

Jeff Harrell: Okay.

Joey Schewee: So every other system out there: StrengthsFinder, Myers Briggs, DiSC, Colors, all of those are great, they all have their place, but they type you based on your behavior. Enneagram is unique in that it types you based on motivation. I think that's why it's lasted so long. It's believed to be between 2,000 and 4,000 years old.

Jeff Harrell: Wow.

Joey Schewee: So I think that's why it's lasted so long, and why it's gaining such traction. Because if you want to be a healthier individual, you've got to look at why you're doing what you're doing, or else it's pretty futile to try and stop what you're doing.

Jeff Harrell: What's interesting, I've got three Gen Z kids, and they're all super into the Enneagram. And it feels very new, but actually you're saying it's actually 2,000 years old. That's really cool.

Joey Schewee: What we say with kids is, you shouldn't type your kids. They need to kind of figure that out for themselves. So really, teens, late teens, is probably the best time. That being said, the way my husband, Billy, and I teach is we come at it from, "You've got to be the healthiest you, the healthiest number you can be first." But we do believe you can recognize if your child is aggressive, that's one of the stances, dependent, that's one of the stances, or withdrawing. And then you can kind of work with them based on that knowledge. And we've done a lot of work around that.

Applying the Enneagram

Jeff Harrell: That's really interesting, and I want to go back a little bit to your role in education. How have you used the Enneagram in your different roles as teacher now in more an administrative side?

Joey Schewee: So I honestly, I believe I probably used it less as a teacher, more in terms of just engaging with my students. It is invaluable to me as a manager of people.

Jeff Harrell: Got it.

Joey Schewee: So I'm an Eight on the Enneagram. Eights are The Challenger. They're the boss. We're no nonsense. We cut right to it. We're very direct and blunt and firm, and we often have no idea of our impact. Eights are all the time hurting people's feelings. Eights, if you asked an Eight to name a time their feelings were hurt, we probably wouldn't be able to give you an answer.

Jeff Harrell: Ah, interesting.

Joey Schewee: And so because we don't bring feelings to the table, we don't consider that we could hurt yours. And so, I've said, and I've worked with... My niche actually, is I teach Enneagram often in the corporate sector, mainly just working with teams. Because the people that you work with are seeing things likely, entirely different from you, and that tends to offend people, when it's just a different way of seeing.

Jeff Harrell: And we have a lot of government leaders, community leaders, teachers, administrators that listen to this podcast. They're putting teams together. How can they use the Enneagram to do that, or teams that they maybe already have to work with them, how can they use that with the teams that they have?

Joey Schewee: It is so helpful. So what I do normally, is I'll go in and do an introductory workshop, and then I'll go back in and do all kinds of things, unique team building things, or even working with managers based on the people who work with them and work for them. So, just to give an example of me as an Eight. I don't believe Eights should manage people without the Enneagram. We don't consider people's feelings, and that can come across very harsh, and we're just kind of get straight to it people. And often, if your feelings get hurt in the process, we tend to be dismissive of that because we didn't mean to hurt your feelings. Well, that doesn't work when you have to manage people.

So for me, I manage six different people in two offices, and I literally use Enneagram every day. And when I hire someone, that's one of the first things you have to do is figure out your number, because it alleviates so much unnecessary stress, because the environment that an Eight often creates, we like to grow and expand. Jeff, J.P. II, we're 15 years in, and 86% of our operating income comes from enrollment. So admissions is a high stress, important job, and Eights don't go to work to make friends. We go to work to do a very important job. And if you want to join us in that, give the same 150% that we're giving all the time, then we can join in that camaraderie, but Eights don't leave room for much else.

I realized, as a manager of people, that I needed to work on and be intentional about being more relational with the people I work with, and could not have done that without Enneagram. And I have risen to the ranks at J.P. II of Chief Advancement Officer, and I guarantee you, I wouldn't be in that position without Enneagram, because I would have offended too many people along the way.

Jeff Harrell: If you're in government leadership or building teams, do you go as far to say, "Hey, I'm an Eight, or I'm a Seven, or whatever my number is. I need to build complimentary numbers with my team." In other words, are you looking at, "Oh, I want to add a Two or a Seven, because I know that's going to be the best fit for the team."

Joey Schewee: That's a great ask, great question, and the answer is yes. So, I've been in charge of Admissions for 10 years, and as a young 30-something, as a 32-year old managing people in a very important admissions job, my goal was people who would gel with me. So that was 10 years ago, but what I looked for was aggressive stance. And when I start describing the stances in more detail, that will become more clear. But Threes and Sevens and Eights are all in the aggressive stance. And that's literally who I hired, Jeff. My admin who's been with me for eight years is a Seven. And then my coordinator is a Three. So I knew I needed people like me, who don't bring a lot of feelings to work. And that's what happens with the aggressive stance. We seem to leave feelings out, while thinking and doing a lot. That's kind of what we run through.

I added Advancement this year, and that's raising money and building relationships with donors. And while I'm good, for as long as I've been there, the relationships with our families, I knew that I actually needed someone who was probably a dependent number, who was a big people person, to be my Director of Development. And my Director of Development is a Two. So what I give up with that, Twos love to process verbally. So Ones, Twos, and Sixes, for them, they're thinking all the time. It's not always productive thinking. And a product that comes with that is, instead of holding their thoughts and then speaking, Ones, Twos, and Sixes all verbally process, so they think as they talk.

So I'm a "Get it set in five minutes and let's move on." And my Two, who's a Director of Development, she's... I have thought about transcribing one of our conversations just to kind of show her, now she knows Enneagram, just so she can see my 10 words to her 10,000. That's how she works, and knowing the Enneagram means I have patience for that, because she is someone who makes instant connections with people and motivates people to want to give money, and I need that in my Development office.

Jeff Harrell: That's fascinating.

Joey Schewee: So yes, I absolutely, knowing Enneagram, I do look for certain numbers, based on the job.

Jeff Harrell: Because you kind of know they're going to fit well with the role that you're trying to fill.

Joey Schewee: Definitely.

Jeff Harrell: I'll be back with my conversation with Joey Schewee in just a moment.

If you're looking for content, and you're not sure where to turn, there's lots of clutter out there. I highly recommend our Resource Center. All you've got to do is go to Tylertech.com, click on resources at the top of the page, and you can search by any topic you'd like. We've got case studies, white papers, videos, you name it, new content added daily. It's the Tyler Tech Resources at tylertech.com. Now, back to my conversation with Joey Schewee.

Well, let's dive into the stances. Let's go ahead and start if you want to, with the aggressive stance, since we've hit on that a few times. And by the way, I am a Seven, so I am part of this aggressive stance.

Joey Schewee: Awesome.

Jeff Harrell: Tell us a little bit more about that.

Joey Schewee: So, if you're looking at an Enneagram, Jeff, then you see just ennea means "nine." Right? So it's just that circle, and you've got the nine points, and then kind of arrows going in every direction. Well, what I love about the Enneagram is you can layer all kinds of other teachings on top of it, an idea that is not Enneagram-specific. Gurdjieff did a lot of work with this, Maurice Nicoll, if you did any kind of psychology work in college, you probably studied these guys. These guys came through and said, "You know what? We all are born, all humans, are born with three intelligent centers: thinking, feeling, and doing. What do I think or feel? What am I going to do?" Again, not Enneagram-specific.

Essentially, one of these centers moves forward pretty quickly for each of us individually to become our dominant center. Okay? And then one falls into a support place, and then that third one falls away completely, so it's almost hidden. It's not accessed a lot. And in the Enneagram, we are in triads based on what's dominant. And all that means is what we do in groups of three is, that's our dominant center, and that means we take in and process information with that center.

So for me as an Eight, I'm in the doing dominant triad. I take in and process with doing. Jeff, as a Seven, you... So Nines and Ones join me in the doing dominant triad. As a Seven, you're in the head triad. And for you, what is dominant is thinking. So, you're a big thinker. That's the first thing you do for you, that's your step first, is thinking. And then my mom, Suzanne Stabile, is a Two on the Enneagram, and she's a big feeler. So Twos, Threes, and Fours, their dominant center is feeling. They take in and process with feeling. All right? So that's one.

Jeff Harrell: Got it.

Joey Schewee: And that would make sense. You definitely know that intuitively about yourself, that you are in your head a lot. Right? So there's all kinds of great work that you can do with that. And again, that brings up something I love about the Enneagram, is it's not static. This journey, once you start, really looking at who you are and how you're motivated, that work doesn't end. And so, there's a whole level of work that can be done with me doing first and feeling last. Okay?

We are in stances in the Enneagram based on that third center that kind of falls way away. So for you and me, you're thinking dominant and I'm doing dominant, for both of us, feeling is the center that kind of fell away early for us. And it manifests itself behaviorally different with the two of us. We're kind of motivated the same in that sense. So for you, as a Seven, you are motivated to avoid pain.

Jeff Harrell: Yes. I can verify that.

Joey Schewee: And you are thinking dominant, so you use your brain to do that, as a Seven. We are pretty certain that our 11-year old is a Seven on the Enneagram. And Sevens, just what you do and ultimately places you in the aggressive stance, because again, anytime you are talking about Enneagram and you start with behavior, you've taken a misstep. Okay? Because Enneagram is all about motivation. So, Threes, people who know Threes and people who know Eights would say, "Oh yeah, I can totally see how they're aggressive." But they're thinking about it as behaviorally. And very few people find Sevens to be aggressive. Well, none of us, we're not in this stance because of our behavior. We're in this stance because of our motivation. And you are very aggressively motivated to stay positive and stay happy.

Jeff Harrell: Yeah. When you said seven was in the aggressive stance, that surprised me, because as a Seven and knowing myself, I was like, "I don't feel like I'm in an aggressive stance that often." So that makes sense, your clarification on that.

Joey Schewee: Yeah. You're definitely just like I am, we're both motivated aggressively. And for you, that usually comes in... The easiest tool at your disposal is the dominant center for you. So what Sevens do, when you approach something or you find yourself in a situation where you don't like what's happening or pain might be coming, you in your mind, change what's happening. I call it reframing, that's what it's called in Enneagram. You reframe what's happening in your mind so you can stay positive about it.

So a very basic example for our child, he's a soccer and lacrosse player, and in soccer, he's a goalie. And he was probably eight years old, Jeff, and we were going home after a tournament, and in one of the tournament games, one of the goals I thought he probably could have gotten to. And an Eight parent doesn't need you to win, but we need you to do your best all the time. And so, I wasn't sure that that had happened. And so, I questioned him. I said, "Sam, what happened with that first goal in the second game?" And Jeff, he was probably nine at the time. He looked right at me, and in all sincerity said, "Mom, I don't remember goals that are scored on me."

So Sevens reframe in the minute. My younger brother is a Seven, and he has completely different childhood memories from the rest of us, because he was reframing what was happening in the moment for him. And he walked away with an entirely different memory than the rest of us did.

Jeff Harrell: Let me ask you this, Joey, because as a Seven, and I've got friends who are Sevens. So I'm a trail runner, and so I do ultra runs. These are 50Ks and they're terrible. They hurt. And I also do Peloton at the end of it. It's terrible. So it's not about avoiding physical pain or is it that I'm that I'm rationalizing it? Explain that a little bit.

Joey Schewee: It's all avoiding sadness, Jeff.

Jeff Harrell: Okay.

Joey Schewee: When I say pain, hurt and sadness.

Jeff Harrell: Not physical pain.

Joey Schewee: No, you guys can totally endure physical pain.

Jeff Harrell: Got it.

Joey Schewee: You are avoiding being sad.

Jeff Harrell: Got it.

Joey Schewee: The dark place. If you think about all of our emotions on a spectrum, and on one end is the happiest and most euphoric place possible, and on the other end is just the darkest and saddest place possible. For you, as a Seven, your internal meter stops right at about the middle. You reframe in your mind what's happening so you can stay on that positive side of the range, and that's aggressive. Do you see how that works that way? Right?

Jeff Harrell: Yep. Totally.

Joey Schewee: And for me, as an Eight, I... So you're thinking and feeling last. You're thinking first, doing second, that's your support, and you're feeling last. I, as an Eight, am doing first, thinking second, and feeling almost never. So the way I like to say it is, "I shoot way before I aim. I don't even think to aim. I'll shoot first, aim second." And that's when the thinking comes in. So I will usually react to something in my gut. I will respond to it aggressively, and then I'm a fast enough thinker and processor to come back behind what I did with a reason. But the truth is, I did not think about it before I did it. And Sevens and Eights, our two numbers, are the fastest mental processors on the Enneagram. We just think on our feet and process very quickly.

And then Threes are right there with us, so we don't want to leave out Threes. What's unique about Threes, and they're similar to Sixes and Nines in this sense, when you look at an Enneagram or you picture an Enneagram, and you see those arrows shooting in every direction, or the lines going everywhere, you see the one triangle in the middle, and that's the Three, Six, Nine triangle. So Threes, Sixes, and Nines are known as the primary numbers. They're the center number in each triad, meaning both of the numbers on either side of them have the same dominant center. For those three numbers, what is dominant is also least accessed. Okay?

So, easy to say, I'm doing, dominant Eight with Nines and Ones, and I feel last. You're a thinking, dominant Seven, with fives and sixes, and you feel last. Well when you look at Threes, they're in the heart triad with Twos and Fours. So Threes actually feel dominant and feel last. And don't let it be confusing, because it's quite simple. For all three of those numbers, while their neighbors are taking in and processing with the dominant center, they are not. So you take in, Jeff, and process information through your head. I take in and process with doing. Threes only take in with feeling. They don't process with feelings. So they're masters at picking up and reading other people's feelings. But Threes are actually the most out of touch with their own feelings.

Jeff Harrell: Interesting. And Threes are called The Achiever, right? That's the kind of the-

Joey Schewee: The Achiever, The Performer, very goal-oriented. They move from... So while they're feeling dominant, they actually are big doers. They're big at comparing. They're very competitive. Sevens, Eights, and Threes are probably the most competitive numbers. All right? The way I talk about Threes is because they have that natural access to feeling that you and I don't have, Seven and Eights just don't have it, but Threes do, they kind of have it all over us when you get into more managerial and leadership type positions. And the way I say it is, if a Three and a Seven and an Eight are all in a race. Okay? Now, Jeff, I what to know what you think, because I think Sevens think enough and are future-oriented enough that if you don't have a shot at winning, you may just step out all together.

Jeff Harrell: Yeah. I could see that.

Joey Schewee: Depending on the game or the ride, right? So really, the most aggressive in behavior are your Threes and your Sevens. So we're both going to clobber our way to the finish line. Okay? We're probably going to run over you in the process, because both of us want to get to that finish line first. Okay?

Jeff Harrell: Yeah.

Joey Schewee: Well, Threes have it all over me as an Eight, because they know they ran over you. What feeling gives them is they know you did it. It doesn't keep them from doing it. But the minute they cross the finish line, they're coming back to help you up. "Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't see you there. I'm so sorry. I didn't see you." I have no idea I ran over you. You were a speed bump to me. Eight's just don't see in that way. We're all about the thing to do.

So for all three of us, the most impactful Enneagram work we can do is bringing up feeling. And Jeff, when I teach it to aggressive numbers, they're with me till I get to this part. They're loving it. Right? They love the energy. They love the aggressiveness. They love it all, the competitiveness. And then they're like, "Oh, wait a minute. We got to bring up feeling?" And what I'm very quick to say is, "It's not the warm and fuzzy feelings that you see from a lot of Twos and Fours and Sixes. All it means for the three of us to bring up feeling is being a little more considerate of others, just considering other people." That's simply what comes with that, a lot because of how they behave. And because they're quick thinkers, a lot of Threes and Eights, I think followed by Sevens, find themselves as heads of industry. And to do that, not naturally be considerate of others, can create big issues.

Jeff Harrell: Interesting. And I'm thinking about the question you asked about Sevens. Would they continue the race if they know they can't win? I think the answer is yes, as long as we're having fun, as long as there's-

Joey Schewee: Fun, there you go. Yeah. As long as it's not painful.

Jeff Harrell: Because I mentioned earlier, I do trail running. I never win. I'm a middle of the pack kind of guy, but I have fun. It's the experience, it's the people, it's doing big things, and I'm going to finish. If I couldn't finish, that to me would be failure. It's not necessarily winning.

Joey Schewee: There you go.

Jeff Harrell: It's not necessarily winning, it's winning myself. I'm getting a PR for me, not for somebody else.

Joey Schewee: Fun is the most important. And that's what you have with Sevens.

Jeff Harrell: Totally. Totally.

Joey Schewee: All the time. Yeah.

Jeff Harrell: Yeah.

Joey Schewee: Yeah, for sure.

Jeff Harrell: Well, there was so much great content from this interview with Joey's Schewee, we decided to break it up into two parts. So you just heard Part One. We'll be back in two weeks with Part Two of our bonus episode around the Enneagram. I hope you'd enjoyed it. Hey, thanks so much for joining me. It really means a lot to me. If you would leave us a review wherever you listen to your podcast, we would really appreciate it. Again, I'm Jeff Harrell, Director of Content Marketing with Tyler Technologies. Thanks so much for joining us. We'll talk to you soon.