Bonus: Teacher Teaches the Enneagram, Part 2

Tyler Podcast Episode 11, Transcript

Our Tyler Technologies podcast explores a wide range of complex, timely, and important issues facing communities and the public sector. Expect approachable tech talk mixed with insights from subject matter experts and a bit of fun. Host and Content Marketing Director Jeff Harrell – and other guest hosts – highlights the people, places, and technology making a difference. Give us listen today and subscribe.

Episode Summary

Teacher, Administrator and Enneagram expert Joey Schewee, daughter of Suzanne Stabile (author of the Enneagram gold standard book, ""Road Back to You""), is back with a PhD-level course on the Enneagram. If you work in a team environment, or just want to learn more about your motivation, you'll love this very practical episode, environments to increase communication and productivity.

Transcript

Joey Schewee: And I say to the people who work with them, when you've got a one being critical of you, the first thing you can do just as a human being, who's learning the Enneagram is stop and think to yourself. Every time you got to just keep reminding yourself, that whatever the one is giving you, it is first and worst on themselves. So they've beat themselves up first, before they've brought anything up to you.

Jeff Harrell: From Tyler Technologies, it's the Tyler Tech podcast where we talk about issues facing communities today and do so in a way that's both entertaining and enlightening. I'm your host, Jeff Harrell. I'm the director of content marketing for Tyler Technologies. I'm very excited about this episode, because it's part two of our conversation about the Enneagram. Joey Schewee is a teacher. She's a school administrator and she is an absolute Enneagram expert. If you listen to the episode part one, you got a great introduction into the Enneagram. We take it a step higher today. We talk about the Enneagram at a PhD level. You're going to get a lot of great information. So if you're interested in the Enneagram, if you work on a team, if you're part of a family or part of a group, I think you'll find this information very helpful. With no further ado, we're going to jump right into my conversation with Joey Schewee. One's a reformer. Is that correct?

Joey Schewee: Or a perfectionist? Either one. Yeah.

Jeff Harrell: Or perfectionist. Okay. And two is a helper?

Joey Schewee: Helper. That's the best name for a two.

Jeff Harrell: Okay. And then six would be the loyalist?

Joey Schewee: Yes. Loyalist or devil's advocate. Sixes and this is where let's just actually start with sixes, because we ended with threes where you've got someone who's feeling since they're on the triangle, they're taking in information with feeling. Threes are, but not processing with feeling. So they're the most out of touch with their own feelings.

Sixes are thinking all the time. They're thinking dominant. What happens with a six, is they're on a hamster wheel in their mind, because sixes cannot help but think of every possible scenario. Often that manifests itself as worst case scenario thinking. There's some fear that goes with that, but it's really more of a belief. Sixes kind of belief that the world is a slippery slope and that people have hidden agendas, and they can't help that their brain works that way. So what they're doing is making a plan for every single thing that could possibly happen.

Jeff Harrell: And is that in both a healthy and unhealthy state or is that kind of skew more of the unhealthy?

Joey Schewee: Absolutely.

Jeff Harrell: Okay. Both.

Joey Schewee: No healthy and unhealthy. And interestingly enough, for all of these numbers, for ones, twos and sixes, their reference point is outside of themselves on what's happening. And so what you teach that's so important from one's, twos and sixes is very often other people are setting the agenda for the lives of ones, twos and sixes, because their reference point is on you or are on this situation. And these numbers, this is where thinking is not, productive thinking is not always accessed. These numbers have a tendency to naturally look to the situation to see what should happen next?

You and I, Jeff, along with threes, we can absolutely, something could be blowing up next to us and we can stand independent from it. We can choose to be a part of it, but we can just as easily stand independent from it. Ones, twos and sixes cannot, because their reference point is on what's happening. So these three numbers feel responsible for making the world a better place.

Jeff Harrell: Got it.

Joey Schewee: And so these three numbers flock to education, healthcare, ministry. If I go into a school staff and teach, or I go to a church staff and teach, or a medical staff and teach, and I've done all three, easily half the room will be dependent stance numbers, ones, twos, and sixes.

Jeff Harrell: Non-profits as well?

Joey Schewee: Because those are the numbers. Say it again? Oh, absolutely. Non-profits, absolutely.

Jeff Harrell: I bet government too. I would think government would probably be full of them as well. Just helping-

Joey Schewee: I think a lot of them.

Jeff Harrell: Helping the public yeah. Public servants.

Joey Schewee: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. What's unique to ones. Let's talk about these ones and twos a little bit. What's unique to ones and they'll definitely say they're thinking all the time. Ones are the one number on the Enneagram who has an internal critic and they were born with the critic and they absolutely know it when I teach it. They're usually pretty surprised to find out that there that not everybody has that internal critic. And it's never supportive. The critic is never supportive for ones. It's, you messed that up. You blew that whole presentation. Ones cannot send an email and not think about it for hours after.

So that's that needing to bring up productive thinking. When I go in and I teach, just like I got to bring up feeling, you guys have to bring up productive thinking. And that's a big thing for ones, is once they push send, or once they have a conversation, they're criticizing themselves on everything they did.

These ones are driven for perfection. They want things to be perfect. And so they are one of the ways that manifests, is ones that are always making lists for themselves. And they're kind enough to make lists for the rest of us, those of us in their lives as well. And these ones are often surprised if you accuse them of being critical, because they're offering to the rest of us just a fraction of what they deal with all the time, internally, all the time.

It is unceasing. And so I have ones tell me all the time, "It's just so exhausting." They want to relate to people, is how exhausting it is to have that going on all the time. And I usually, when I'm teaching with people who work with ones, who have probably been pretty critical of them, I first highlight the fact that because ones are dependent, because their reference point is on their coworkers. Eights have no idea how we are impacting you.

Ones absolutely know how they're impacting you. They see it, they read it. But for them, striving for perfection, if you could just do it this way, you would see it. So things have to be done in a certain order. There is a step, there's one right way to do things if you're a one. Very, very black and white thinkers, those ones.

And I say to the people who work with them, when you've got a one being critical of you, the first thing you can do just as a human being who's learning, the Enneagram is stop and think to yourself, every time you got to just keep reminding yourself that whatever the one is giving you, it is first and worst on themselves. So they've beat themselves up first before they've brought anything up to you.

Jeff Harrell: Wow.

Joey Schewee: And when I'm asking ... what I'm asking sixes to do when I'm saying, work on bringing up thinking, is almost every single worst case scenario that you made a plan for, because they don't ... sixes don't just think about the worst thing that could happen. They make a plan. So I taught a 20 something about a year ago in Jackson, Mississippi who talked about being a little girl and driving around Jackson, Mississippi and thinking. What she was doing was mapping the city, because her worst case thought was if she got kidnapped and put into the trunk of a car-

Jeff Harrell: Wow.

Joey Schewee: She would get out of the trunk and then know how to get home.

Jeff Harrell: Oh my goodness.

Joey Schewee: So that's how that manifests. Yeah. She didn't just sit around and think, "Oh, what if I get kidnapped?" It's, "Here's my plan."

Jeff Harrell: Yeah.

Joey Schewee: So sixes cannot help that's that hamster wheel that they're on. I have them tell me all the time that they have paralysis by analysis. They doubt themselves. Sixes are the one number who doubts themselves. And so they look to authority. They're the ones in your organizations who have read the employee handbook cover to cover. It's tabbed. It's page ... and they're checking to see if you, as the leaders are following that and everyone else. That's where their reference point is outside of them. Okay? But they're the true team player. Sixes are all about rolling up their sleeves for the good of the organization.

A Good Role for Sixes

Jeff Harrell: I was going to ask, what role is good for sixes? Is it like a planning kind of a role, would be great for six? Because they're already planning or would that drive them crazy?

Joey Schewee: Here's where planning gets tough for dependent numbers. So our orientation to time for each of our numbers is based on our stance. So you and me and threes, sevens, eighths, and threes in the aggressive stance, our orientation of time is the future. That's where we think. So we're big on planning. We're actually the three numbers who are big on planning.

Jeff Harrell: Got it.

Joey Schewee: I always caution threes and remind them that they're really the only number who just lives and dies by goals. So if you've got a three manager, who's all about having goal meetings with their employees, that's not working. That goal meetings put a lot of stress on one's, twos and sixes, because that's so far in the future and their orientation of time, one's, twos and sixes is the present.

And so while they can't ... sixes are great in compliance, sixes and ones are great in compliance. Sixes are great if the planning is what could happen and what is our ... if all of these scenarios happen, what's our plan going to be? Yes, they would be great in those roles. Where employers get frustrated with sixes, their questions.

So one's, twos and sixes, all three numbers in the dependent stance they ask questions. They're the big question askers. Sixes ask the most. For all three numbers though, we have a tendency when we don't know the Enneagram and we're being questioned by a one, a two or a six, we have a tendency to think they're questioning us. That's not what it is. They are checking their own thinking very often, very, very often. That's what's happening.

Jeff Harrell: Do sixes start with, "What happens if ..."

Joey Schewee: Very often. Very often.

Jeff Harrell: Okay.

Joey Schewee: And they're going to have 50 like that. Sixes are going to ask questions. It is when you are dealing with three numbers who don't think on the fly and who want to check their own gathered information before they come up with their own opinion, which happens a lot, with all three numbers, but mainly sixes. It does them a horrible disservice to not send an agenda for the meaning you're going to have. That's just a simple thing that helps when you're working with ones, twos and sixes. Send the meeting agenda ahead of time. Then for those three numbers, they can have thought about what they want to contribute and what they think about those six.

Jeff Harrell: That's great advice. That's great.

Joey Schewee: Yeah. And then I have ... twos. Oh, those twos. Okay. Twos are the litmus ... I think all three numbers could be the litmus test for your office. Billy and I teach that dependent stance children are the litmus test for your house, because their reference point is on what's happening in the house. If that kid's not okay, it's possible that something in the house isn't okay.

For the office though, you need that to who cannot help, but feel what everyone else is feeling, who can tell you how everyone else is doing. I move so fast. I'm just not on that level relationally. And you needed two, who can kind of help make sure that everyone in the office is okay. So I do a lot of work with Crest industries in Louisiana. They're a big industrial company and their head of HR is a two.

She's working with presidents from 10 different companies in this umbrella organization. She is really good at when big things roll out, she's really good at reading how it hits the managers. And she kind of comes back to the chief operating officer and president, who's a one and kind of says, "Okay, you got to go back to this person." So twos are great at knowing who's doing well and who's not.

The thing that twos that gets in their own way all the time, where productive thinking is lost, is twos are the one number who actually feels what the person in front of them is feeling. They pick it up and feel it themselves. And then for them thinking is last and doing is second. So what a two does is they feel your feeling and then doing supports that.

So they feel like they have to do something about what they feel. And they're doing it all the time, all the time, feeling and doing, and feeling and doing. Bringing up thinking for a two is such good work, because all it is, is helping them realize that the thing they're doing that they felt like they had to do was probably based in a feeling that wasn't even their own to begin with. Wasn't even their own. I say to spouses of twos all the time, when that two or of parents of twos coming home and just relaying all these feelings. And it seems like it's just such a burden, 70 to 80% of those feelings that they're unpacking were never their own to begin with.

Jeff Harrell: Interesting.

Joey Schewee: So very helpful and we'll end the dependent stands with this. I give twos, it doesn't work for any other number like it works for twos. But three questions for twos to ask themselves that help them bring up thinking, which they need to do, si when they're getting ready to do something they're motivated to do, because they felt like they needed to do it. The three questions they need to ask are, what is my agenda in helping this person? What's my agenda? Number two, do I expect, what, if anything, do I expect in return? So do I expect something in return?

And I got to remind twos often that just having the person like you is expecting something in return. And then the third question that often twos like to skip right on over, but it's very important, is does the other person want my help? Because often they're just doing and they're exhausted. These twos are exhausted. And often they get to midlife and they're just tired. They're completely beat, because they have spent a lifetime doing for others because they felt motivated by just picking up that feeling. So bringing up thinking is good for ... productive thinking is good for all three of those numbers.

Jeff Harrell: Got it.

Joey Schewee: And then our last three, our withdrawing stance. Those are fours, fives and nines. So you got fours who are in the feeling dominant stance with twos and threes. Fives who are in triad, feeling dominant triad with twos and threes. Fives who join you in sixes in the thinking dominant triad. And nines, that's your last triangle number, so they're doing dominant with me and ones. And these numbers are doing all the time. So nines are doing all the time, but it's usually what they like or what they want to do.

Well, and sometimes that leaves what needs to be done for these three numbers. My husband, Billy is a nine. He is getting his doctorate in education. He's about to be Dr. Shoey. So it's not that he's not doing, but when he crosses the stage in his graduate hood and you say, "Dr. Shoey, that's amazing. What are you going to do with this?" He will likely look at you and say, "I have no idea. Do you have any good ideas?" So nines, it's not that they're not doing, these nines who do are doing dominant and doing least access. They just, there's not a ton of direction with these nines and their doing. All right?

Jeff Harrell: Got it. And I was just going to define the numbers real quick. So four is an individualist. Is that the accurate term for that one?

Joey Schewee: Yes. I think individualist is a good term for fours.

Jeff Harrell: Okay. And five is the investigator.

Joey SSchewee: Definitely.

The Peacemaker

Jeff Harrell: And then nine, my wife is actually a nine, the peacemaker.

Joey Schewee: Peacemaker is great.

Jeff Harrell: Okay. Awesome.

Joey Schewee: Peacemakers, very good for those three. So for these three numbers, doing is least access for them. And what actually happens, so they're withdrawing. So while if something's blowing up right over here and you and me threes, eights and sevens can stand independent from it. Ones, twos and sixes can't help but be on it. That's where the reference point is.

Well, four, fives and nines can just withdraw from it. And these numbers are all natural withdrawers. So while three, sevens and eights in the aggressive stance have the most energy on the Enneagram, fours, fives, and nines have the least.

Jeff Harrell: Interesting.

Joey Schewee: As a group, nines in that group have the least. So nines have the least energy on the Enneagram and that's something that has been so helpful to know, just navigating married life for me with a nine. I have just a bounding energy and for Billy to stay present for the conversation for the day, for the job, everything, it's a lot of intentionality and it actually takes a lot of work for a nine.

Jeff Harrell: Can I ask a clarifying question on that? Because when you say energy, are you talking about, because my wife is a nine, is going all the time, but she withdraws very quickly. Are you saying relational energy or are you talking about physical energy or are we talking like ...

Joey Schewee: It's usually physical energy.

Jeff Harrell: Okay.

Joey Schewee: All three numbers have to have alone time.

Jeff Harrell: Yep.

Joey Schewee: She has to have hers. I'm sure she has her ways of getting it.

Jeff Harrell: People will drain her of energy. So maybe that's where we see it. Okay.

Joey Schewee: Yes. And that's usually what happens, because they're naturally withdrawing numbers, people drain all of these numbers. All right?

Jeff Harrell: Okay. Got it. Yep.

Joey Schewee: The number they drain the most actually, because I think a lot of nines will relate that they get energy from being around others and being in groups. Pretty much across the board, the number that is drained by other people is your thinking dominant, investigating fives. Fives are absolutely in their head. And while eights have the most energy and nines have the least energy, fives are the one number on the Enneagram who has a set amount.

So when I describe it, I like to describe it as a savings account, a bank account or a gas tank. Okay? And some tanks, some accounts might be larger than others, but all fives have the same for them, just finite amount. And what drains that the fastest is being around other people and certain people drain it much faster than others. So the fives in your life, if they're your spouse, want to know when something begins, when a social engagement begins and they want to know when it ends, because what fives are doing, who intuitively know this about themselves.

This is what I love about fives. Well about Enneagram in general. All of this is intuitive work. You've been living this way. This just gives an explanation to it. So these fives compartmentalize their energy, because they have a set amount. And so job, it's like they mentally allot a certain amount of energy for their job, a certain amount for their family, a certain amount for social engagements.

When they get to empty, there is no getting it back until they are alone, completely alone to get to fill back up. And they know this about themselves. So when they're asking when it begins and when it ends and they want to know who's going to be there, that's because it, for them, it's a mental math for do I have enough energy to do this? Fives that work with you, want to know when the meeting starts and when it ends, often and they'll often want to know who's going to be there.

They're so analytical. And the gift that fives bring to organizations, is that they're the most neutral of all the numbers. So nines are your peacemaker. And what they're really good at is harmonizing conflicting points of view. That's the gift that nines bring. What fives bring is they are completely neutral, so they can have an opinion and have a feeling connected to it, but they can detach from that. They're very, very good at that just naturally. And that's part of just that thinking dominant investigative five.

And then fours. Fours are the most unique and complex number on the Enneagram. There are fewer fours than any other number and they are very complex and what they really want, their driving force is to be understood. So if you read or see something somewhere that says, they want to be special, a little too surface. What fours actually want, they feel like they don't quite fit naturally.

Jeff Harrell: Got it.

Joey Schewee: And so they feel first and they think second and they do last. And so it leaves them in a world of feelings when you're a withdrawn number, who's thinking and feeling all the time. So the way I like to describe it as a four, having our 14 year old is a self-identified four. And I am so grateful for the Enneagram as an eight, because if I did not know the Enneagram, I would have spent the last 14 years feeling like my 14 year old four son was just ungrateful all the time.

Jeff Harrell: Oh wow.

Fours

Joey Schewee: Because fours cannot help but see what's missing. They can't help it. Fours are comfortable with melancholy. That does not mean they walk around as depressed, but they're comfortable with melancholy, too happy doesn't seem quite right to them. And they always, always, always see what's missing. They can't help it.

Jeff Harrell: Wow.

Joey Schewee: And that's happening in your office. But their contributions are so unique and real, they're very authentic. So authenticity is a big thing for fours. They sniff out inauthentic very quickly and they don't have any energy for that. And they have a lot of space for people. Fours just have a lot of space for everyone else, because they're walking around thinking, "I'm missing it. You all got something that I just didn't get." It's kind of that thing. They have this internal sense that they're missing something and they won't be complete until they find it or they get it. And that's almost like a lifelong thing with fours.

Jeff Harrell: Wow. Interesting.

Joey Schewee: But for all three of these withdrawing numbers, we're doing is least access, because they're withdrawing and because their reference point is internal, all three of these numbers, and I know this has happened with your wife, Jeff, all three of these numbers think that they talk and engage more than they actually do. So one of my favorite stories, Billy and I, he's an only child and I come from a big family and as we were dating, we would leave being with my family. And I would say, "Babe, do you even, do you like my family? You didn't say much."

And Billy's response was, "I said a ton. I said a lot." Well, he had conversations with everyone in his head. Half of those words never left his mouth. All fours, fives and nines, they have all kinds of conversations with you in their head. And a lot of the times those words aren't actually leaving their brain to actually engage with you.

Jeff Harrell: Interesting. I totally see that with my wife for sure.

Joey Schewee: Yeah.

Jeff Harrell: Well, awesome. Man, this is such great information. I didn't really understand the stances before. So this has been helpful for me, even though I knew a little bit about the Enneagram. Can we maybe hit real quickly just each number and maybe just one or two words about maybe a healthy one, unhealthy one, just so people can kind of have a quick reference at the end of this?

Joey Schewee: So I'll kind of stay more average.

Jeff Harrell: Perfect.

Joey Schewee: Healthy and average space.

Jeff Harrell: Yep. Perfect.

Joey Schewee: And we'll go in stance order just to keep it consistent. Are you good with that?

Jeff Harrell: Prefect. I'm perfect with that. Yep.

Eights

Joey Schewee: So your eights are your take charge people. They're going to see exactly what needs to be done, and they're going to have a lot of energy to do it. In just average space, I need people to understand that eights do not realize the impact they have. So they're running over you and hurting your feelings, and they are not intending to. That's a big thing to note about eights. And they are reticent, some of them to do this kind of work to bring up feeling, because they didn't mean to hurt your feelings, so that's on you. It's kind of what happens with these eights.

Jeff Harrell: Yeah.

Joey Schewee: That's you, your work to deal with if I hurt your feelings, because I didn't mean to. That's kind of what you're dealing with, with eights, I think.

Sevens. Sevens are bringing so much positive energy to everything. They're big ideas, they're big planners, they're big futurists. And they bring a lot of fun and positivity. A seven who is not in that space, sevens tend to, they want to do what's fun for them. And so what I'm cautioning sevens to watch is when they aren't being considerate of other people's thoughts, or plans, or ideas, or agendas And if that's what the bigger group wants to go with, sevens are withdrawing their fun energy. And it's like the air being sucked out of the room. You almost kind of catch your breath with it.

That's tough to deal with, if you're the seven, who's normally bringing a lot of the energy to what's happening in an impactful way. You've got to start opening up, that there are other options and other agendas without withdrawing your energy. And I think sevens do that. It's never manipulative and it's never conscious. You just, you don't think, "Well, I'm not going to ..." You don't think, "I'm withdrawing my energy now." It's not what you wanted to do. And so it leaves a void. It leaves a void. And I think frenetic planning, sevens just need to watch that frenetic planning. Going from one thing to the next, without finishing.

Jeff Harrell: That is me.

Joey Schewee: All right.

Jeff Harrell: That is me to a T.

Threes

Joey Schewee: Okay. Threes. Threes, I tell you, it is a huge gift to be able to do based on a reaction that you see in the way someone feels. It is dangerous to not look at your own feelings. And usually the feelings that threes are when you find a pretty average to unhealthy three, that three is all image, is not doing internal work. I think Enneagram work is the toughest to do if you are a three, because Enneagram work in general requires looking inside and observing.And threes are not naturally wired to do that.

Jeff Harrell: Wow.

Joey Schewee: So what they usually quickly kind of bury and turn away from is our feelings of shame, and anger, and disappointment, and embarrassment. And we all grow when we work through those. So threes who actually can go through the discomfort of looking inside and doing some Enneagram work, will be able to offer the world so much more, because it will be more authentic, because an unhealthy three is very surface. Very it's all about image and there's not much behind it.

And then ones, twos and sixes ones. Ones are great with details. They are all in the details and they are phenomenal with that. They're great with process. They're great with setting up processes for something to be successful. Ones have got to get on board that there is more than one way to do something. They, if you let go a little bit, other people will rise to some good levels.

Ones who aren't very healthy, who are in the average to unhealthy space are two things are happening. They're getting caught up in minor details. And expending a lot of energy on that. And ones across the world are getting angry at work and stuffing it, because it wouldn't be good to be angry at work. And they're taking that home and they are unloading it on their families.

Jeff Harrell: Wow.

Twos

Joey Schewee: Just kind of watch that. Watch that anger, because it's a real thing. Twos, man, you're exhausted. You're tired all the time. And it's because you're doing for others based on what you're feeling, but it was not your feeling to begin with. So at their best, twos are warm and intuitive and generous. And they just know, they're almost empathic. They know exactly what you need. And that's great. Twos, when you're in average to unhealthy space, you can be manipulative. You can be martyring. That's kind of twos. When you know, you're not in a good space, you're slipping into martyrdom. I do all of this for you and you're not giving to me.

Jeff Harrell: Okay.

Joey Schewee: And what twos, what's helpful for twos to realize is, they sense what we need and give it to us before we even ask. That's what they're good at. So, we ascribe to the world how we are. So what twos do when they're tired, is they think that those around them, who they've sensed and given to are going to, number one sense what they need and then give. And we don't, because we're not twos. So we don't sense it. And the two gets their feelings hurt.

So twos need to see that not everyone senses. It is terrifying for a two to ask for what they want or what they need, but they need to. That will end up being very freeing for them. Sixes. Sixes, I would think that this is a very tough time for sixes, because they are used to in one way, they were prepared for this, what we're dealing with right now. Right?

Jeff Harrell: Right.

Joey Schewee: Because they had thought of it and they were prepared. At the same time, two things are happening that is causing sixes a lot of stress. There is no one authority saying this is what we should do. And they're already struggling with their own inner doubt. Okay. And six's reference point is on everybody else. When a six is going to anywhere, the supermarket anywhere and not everybody's wearing the face mask, not everyone's following all the rules, sixes are losing a lot of precious energy in that their reference point, being on everyone, not doing what they should be doing.

And sixes need to kind of watch if they're getting lost in that. Sixes, man at your best, you are the true team player. You are so such a good voice in your family and in your job, because you're the one number who has considered everybody in the room. I don't think any other number does that.

Jeff Harrell: Wow.

Joey Schewee: But sixes do that really well. And then our withdrawing numbers, fours, fives, and nines. Fours, you at your best, you are just wonderfully creative human beings. And you bring ... our four 14 year old is just an old soul. He just brings something, such depth. Fours, bring a lot of depth to what we do. And that's a good space.

Fours you'll know you're in average to unhealthy space when you are engaged in push, pull. You're the one number who does it. And what happens with you, fours, is you see that one thing and it's a person, a place, a job, that could be the thing that could finally complete you. And as it gets closer, you see that it's flawed and missing something. And so you push it or ignore it in some way. And then as whatever it is kind of slips away a little, then you start to pull at it again.

And fours, when you're in an unhealthy space, you are doing that like on steroids. It's very intense and it's much more rapid. So just kind of watch that. Fives, you've got to watch, not going so deep in the hole that nobody hears from you at all, because this is actually kind of a decent space for you to be withdrawn. But so much of the energy that you get is from thinking and sharing your ideas and your thoughts with others. So don't become the recluse. Fives who are in a healthy space can bring that neutrality to something and they can share their thoughts and ideas. And they have so much unexpected for the rest of us, information on everything kind of neatly tucked away.

Fives, you need to watch when you're in unhealthy to average space, because doing is least access for you and thinking is dominant. Your feelings support your thoughts. And so fives, you need to watch when you share your thoughts with someone and we disagree. You need to watch when you take that personally, because we're not disagree ... we're disagreeing with your thought, not with you. You need to watch that.

And then nines. Nines, nines, nines, you are so important in the world, because you see both sides to everything. You bring so much because you consider both sides. When things happen, you're the last person to give an idea or offer a thought and you should be one of the first, because you actually have a wonderful way of seeing from all sides that not everybody brings to the table.

Nines, you need to watch that what drives you is your desire to avoid, to avoid conflict most importantly, but also to avoid being affected by the situation. And you can be stubborn, nines in your insistence on not being affected by what's happening. When you find yourselves kind of digging in your heels to not let what is outside of you affect you, that's probably a tap on the shoulder that you might need to kind of recenter. And not all conflict is bad and not everything is conflictual. The things that nines think would be conflictual fascinate me. So nines, you defer. I say Billy Shoey defers to a fault sometimes to avoid conflict. So just watch that.

Jeff Harrell: Joey, this is awesome. And I know you can go super deep on this stuff. And obviously you're passionate about this. If people want to learn more, are there good resources that they can go to even learn more?

Joey Schewee: Absolutely. I'm going to share my belief that I think written indicators are dangerous. They could be a good jumping off point. I think written indicators often get us in the right stance maybe, but because this is not a behavior thing, it's a motivation thing, so many written indicators out there are asking you questions about your behavior.

Jeff Harrell: Yep.

Joey Schewee: And not questions about your motivation. So Jeff, you and I could answer a lot of questions the same way.

Jeff Harrell: Right.

Joey Schewee: But we are motivated very differently.

Jeff Harrell: Yeah.

Joey Schewee: Right?

Jeff Harrell: Yep.

Joey Schewee: So I say one of the best primer out there, it's best seller in multiple countries is the Road Back To You. So that's my mom's book that she wrote with Ian Kron and that's a great primer. That's a great first place to start. My mom, I would push her podcast as well. She's got the Enneagram Journey. If you just pick an episode and what she does is she talks with that person about being that number. It's a great way in 20 minutes to an hour to kind of have a touchstone with what you think your number might be. So those would be the two, both of my moms, the Road Back To You or her Enneagram Journey podcast.

Jeff Harrell: Love it. And if people wanted to connect with you, what's the best way that they can do that?

Joey Schewee: They can go through the Life in the Trinity Ministry website, or they can just email me and it's Joey@lifeinthetrinityministry.com.

Jeff Harrell: Awesome. Very cool. Joey, thank you so much for your time and your expertise.

Joey Schewee: Absolutely. I enjoyed it.

Jeff Harrell: It's been a lot of fun. Really appreciate it. And yeah, it's great having teachers on here, teaching us things and the Enneagram is certainly one that I think is important for a lot of people. So thank you very much.

Joey Schewee: Thanks for having me.

Jeff Harrell: Well, I hope you enjoyed that episode. I've really enjoyed studying the Enneagram. It's really helped me understand how I behave and are motivated and how people in my team and people in my family behave and are motivated. So I hope you found that very, very helpful.

Hey, thanks so much for listening to the podcast. We really appreciate it. One thing that you can do is go out and give us a review wherever you listen to this podcast, we would really appreciate that. And until next time, this is Jeff Harrell, director of content marketing with Tyler Technologies. Thanks so much for listening. We'll talk to you soon.