How One Former Regulator Views Cannabis Programs

Tyler Podcast Episode 63, Transcript

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Episode Summary

With new states passing cannabis laws, regulations become more important and new cannabis programs must be considered. To help us understand all the nuances related to this issue, Alex Valvassori, general manager of Tyler's Cannabis Licensing software, is joined by Erik Gundersen.  

Gundersen is the founder and principal of ERG Strategies, LLC, a consulting firm that provides unique insights and perspective to cannabis regulators and businesses to help them achieve their goals.

Prior to launching ERG Strategies, Gunderson served as executive director of Maine’s Office of Cannabis Policy (OCP). In February 2019, Maine Governor Janet Mills tapped Gundersen to establish the OCP and launch the state’s adult use cannabis program. Under Gundersen’s leadership, the OCP successfully ushered in the first set of program rules, scaled the office, and began accepting license applications at the end of 2019. Maine’s adult use cannabis program launched in 2020 amid the COVID pandemic.

Additionally, Erik was a founding member of CANNRA, the national association of cannabis regulators.

Transcript

Erik Gunderson: How can states appropriately or most effectively have these programs incorporated A lot of states have done a lot of different things and a lot of them are super interesting and exciting to see the results of them, but these are conversations that you can't sit in a high tower or your office and draft up what a social equity or equity program is going to look like. You need cheap you need to have those types of conversations.

Jeff Harrell: From Tyler Technologies, it's the Tyler Tech podcast, where we talk out issues facing communities today and highlight the people, places, and technology, making a difference. My name is Jeff Harrell. I'm the director content marketing here at Tyler, and I'm so glad that you've joined us. Well, during the midterm elections, several new states passed cannabis laws, making cannabis regulations even more topical and important.

And today, we have Alex Valessori, who is the Tyler Technologies subject matter expert around cannabis regulations Here to have a conversation with Eric Gunderson. Eric is the founder and principal of ERG Strategies which provides insights and perspective to cannabis regulators and businesses to help them achieve their goals. Now before Eric was at ERG Strategies. He served as the executive director of Mainees of the State of Mainees Office of Canvas Policy where he ushered in the very first set of program rules and launched Maine's adult use cannabis program In twenty twenty, during the COVID pandemic, and Eric is also one of the founding members of Canada, which is the National Association of Canvas regulators.

You're gonna enjoy this conversation. They're gonna dive into what is the state role in these regulations, what should the federal government be doing and why equity is such an important part of this conversation. Well, without further ado, here is Alex Valessori with Eric Gunerson.

Alex Valvasorri: Hi, everyone. I'm Alex Valvasory, general manager for licensing at Tyler Technologies.

I'm joined today by Erik Gundersen, founder, and principal of ERG Strategies, and the former executive director of Maine's Office of Canvas policy. Erik, thanks for being on with us today.

Erik Gunderson: Yeah. Thanks for having me, Alex. I appreciate it.

Alex Valvasorri: So, let's start from the beginning. How did you first get plugged in with Maine's cannabis program?

Erik Gunderson: Like a lot of individuals that end up in the cannabis space. It was kind of, stumble upon, but it's a fun story to tell. In two thousand and sixteen, I was a senior policy adviser in our speaker's office, and that was the same year that main voters passed legalization at the ballot box.

So shortly after the November election, our office started getting calls with some concerns around legalization and what that was gonna look like moving forward. And my good friend and boss at the time, the cheapest staff of our speaker just kind of nudged me. It was like, hey, Eric. Do you mind taking a look at the the underlying language that was passed and give me some thoughts, any red flags. So I went through it and it it quickly became apparent that there were, some significant we'll call them significant issues with the language that was passed ended up drafting a memo, kind of highlighting all of the deficiencies.

And it was concerning at that time, but in one of my prouder moments, I think it was literally, like, twenty four hours later. Our current governor, then attorney general, came out with, like, a ten page memo, addressing a lot of the same issues. It was obviously much more eloquent, a lot more legalese, but it it became apparent at that time that we needed to figure out a way to address these deficiencies.

So we quickly acted upon that, put a bill through a committee in the legislature to put a moratorium on legalization and the implementation of it. And then at the end of the day, trying to figure out how to address it and move forward with the main voters, we decided to put together a joint select committee, a special committee, basically, to rewrite Maine's legalization Act top to bottom, and that's kinda how I got started in. Since I was the one that did the original review of the language and put the memo together, I ended up staffing that committee and spending a year and a half with them, basically drafting what that structure for adult use cannabis sales in Maine would look like.

And it was a it was a great learning experience, an exciting experience building out the statutory language for that program, working to overcome a couple governor's vetoes. But, yeah, like I said, end of the day, a year and a half later, that became law. And then shortly after that, we had our change in administrations and the incoming, mills administration We had some conversations, kinda gave them a heads up as far as everything that needed to happen. And one thing turned in another, and they they asked me to to establish Maine's Office of Canvas policy or at point, Maine's office of marijuana policy, I get the rules together and launch the industry.

And that's exactly what happened. And I I got to serve in that role for four years. Which was awesome. But like I said, when I, like, I started answering the question, and it just kinda stumbled into it and very glad I did.

Alex Valvasorri:Yeah. That's really interesting, Erik. And I gotta imagine that it was, an interesting transition kind of going from the legislative side of things to really being a regulator, right, and standing up a program. What was that translation like for you?

Erik Gunderson: It wasn't easy. Certainly working in the legislature is one thing, but then getting dumped into state government. It's a whole different environment, a whole different world. And luckily, I had some really great support.

One of the staff that I had brought on early, I had experience living in state government, in the support I had from both my governor's office, my commissioner's office was incredible. So it did take me a little bit to figure out how to how to kind of navigate in that world, but really those early days, my tension was so hyper focused on getting the first set of regulations together in order for us to start, the adult use program. That it it it is all kind of a blur. But, yeah, there was definitely a learning curve, but, certainly had the the support in right places.

Alex Valvasorri: Yeah. That that is great to hear. And so what were some of those early challenges in in growing pains? I know every market, you know, has to work through those and looking back on that time, were there one or two issues that you found to be exceptionally challenging to work through?

Erik Gunderson: Well, certainly. And we kind of have a unique case here, but I started an established office of cannabis policy in February two thousand and nineteen, and I just alluded to how I was hyper focused on the rule. So the rules to establish that basically serve as the framework of Maine Now adult use cannabis program were major substantive meeting. They had to be approved or blessed by the legislature before going into effect.

And in Maine, we have a part time legislature. So I show up early in February and we need to draft this set of regulations before our legislature goes home in June, July time frame, which also you need to have them go through administrative process. Right? So I think it was literally, like, four or five weeks head down, working all through the day, evening, night sometimes, to put together ninety pages of regulations while making sure that we're engaging stakeholders that were gonna be impacted other state agents and we literally got the draft of rules done in in something like four weeks, five weeks.

And then get them to the legislature with, just in the nick of time to get them passed, But to your your question at all, so that was obviously challenging. We got them passed. They went into effect.

We started operationalizing immediately. We started accepting applications at the end of two thousand nineteen, and our sites were set on a system launcher issuing the first active licenses in spring of twenty twenty. Where, I mean, to to your question, what were some of the challenges?

Interesting timing there. I'm sure everybody's aware of the global health pandemic that started right when we were getting to the point where we're talking about launching the system.

So at that point, everything got put on put on hold. Obviously, you need to work through some issues like launching safely amid a global pandemic, making sure that you had guidance for all of your licensees so they can operate safely and effectively One of the other challenges was local authorization. So Maine is an opt in state. Communities have to opt into the program.

And while we were working with pallities to help them through that process, COVID hits, and really opting in to a cannabis program is, kind of a low priority. And then one of the biggest challenges that we faced was a testing lab. We knew based off the experience of other states that there were a lot of challenges and hurdles around testing, and we were acutely aware of those, and we put a lot of time and resources to make sure that, we wouldn't have those same issues, but the very first lab that was set to come online or was in, a place that were able to meet, the timelines with the launch of the industry, was in a community that hadn't opted in.

So we were working with that municipality to get through the process And, obviously, with COVID, that got pushed to the back. So working through all those different hurdles to actually get to a place where we became the first state to launch a cannabis program amid a global health pandemic amid COVID, a little bit later in twenty twenty, but certainly some unique challenges and growing pains there trying to navigate a global health pandemic at the same time you're launching a statewide cannabis program.

Alex Valvasorri: Yeah. Wow. That I can't even imagine. I that's certainly, hats off to you and all the folks who are involved with making that happen. I think unlike us in the software world where we can hide in our offices alone.

Developing software, right, the cannabis industry. Right? These are real plants that grow in the real world. And so, certainly important to recognize. So as the program matured, as you guys found ways to navigate through COVID and and beyond, what are some of the things that surprised you most about this market?

Erik Gunderson: I think a couple there are a couple good things and a couple maybe not so good things. I was, at this point, surprised of how, collaborative a relationship our office had with our our industry partners.

Really, that relationship I think was beneficial both to us and them and making sure that we were launching a system that was sustainable that was competitive, but also serve the purpose of why we were there as regulators to make sure that we were protecting the public's health and safety. So that was that was really helpful. I think that was really beneficial, and I'm sure we'll talk about it in a little bit here, around how that really formed all the stakeholder engagement work that we did moving forward as an office to make sure that all those voices and stakeholder groups are accounted for in all the policy or office initiatives that we had moving forward.

But, yeah, I mean, there were a lot of challenges. There were a lot of little surprises along the way. Luckily, we had the foresight and the, the benefit of having a lot of come before us and we spend a lot of time talking with those individuals in those other states, whereas we could kind of map out and see a lot of those challenges ahead of us. And to ensure that we had systems in place, processes in place.

We are cognizant of those challenges, and we could plan accordingly So all things considered, we had a really smooth rollout. If you remove COVID from the equation, it was a much smaller, much more controlled rollout But after that, I was also surprised on how fast it really took off. We started with, just a handful of licensees. I think at the point, launched the system.

It was like six retailers, one testing lab, maybe eight cultivators and two manufacturing facilities.

And I think within the first year, could be wrong on this, but it we were well over a hundred licensees. So just how quickly often, and how well the system did.

Alex Valvasorri: Yeah. That that is really great to hear. So, you know, changing gears a little bit, Eric. I'd love to learn more about how technology played a role in all of the work that that your team did. You know, of course, we do licensing work, you know, seed to sell technology plays a critical role. How did all of that go for your team?

What what's working well? And where do you see opportunities maybe for new technologies to enter the space?

Erik Gunderson: And I I love this question too, and I'm not just I'm not just pandering to my audience right now, but technology is so important. Having good data is so important to, all of these regulatory agencies across the country.

I cannot stress it enough. Like, whether you're talking about having systems and technology in place for building, program efficiencies, simplifying and, automating agency workflows all the way down to having systems in place and getting data to better stay in the markets and programs in each jurisdiction based on the data that comes from the these technologies and these systems. I really wanted to be a thought leader in this space and help grow one of the best cannabis programs or two of the best cannabis programs in the entire country. So I wasn't just serving a licensing and enforcement function.

I really wanted to have these systems in place to have a high functioning agency systems in place to make sure that I had real time data that could help drive our decision making around, like, what initiatives do we need to move forward what policy proposals do we need to put in place to address these gaps or inefficiencies or issues that we see whether in real time or in the future based off of that data.

So and also, I think it goes without saying, but it's not brought up often enough having the technology in place and having the data at your fingertips to allow also for maximum transparency, and that was one of our guiding principles at the Office of Cannabis policy, just such an important piece.

Alex Valvasorri: Yeah. Definitely. I can't imagine had this industry come along even just ten or twenty years ago, the challenges that we'd all be presented with. So I I I think we're all fortunate to be to be in that spot today.

You know, I would imagine, Erik, I'm sure, based on everything you share with us today, a lot has changed since, you know, the beginning of twenty twenty. It feels like a lifetime ago. Yeah. And I I'm curious to know to what extent you've observed a shift in public perception of cannabis generally in Maine. You know, of course, while while cannabis remains a contentious topic in some circles, public, you know, views and perceptions are shifting rapidly.

And I'd be curious to see kind of what the sentiment was like, you know, back at the beginning of twenty twenty versus kind of where things stand today.

Erik Gunderson: Yeah. When you're talking about changing the perception or or the culture environment around cannabis, it's a Slowly, but surely. It's something that certainly doesn't happen overnight.

And changing the perception is one thing, and it's completely different than normalizing. I kinda wanna make sure that we distinguish those two things. But slowly but surely, and these things take time. Certainly in Maine, we had a long standing medical program, and we had decriminalized it.

We were one of the first states to ever do it. So I think we were probably ahead of the curve in most states, but, it's probably the the same probably holds true in other states, but are more or urban centers or service centers were the early adopters, opting into the adult use program, allowing for these facilities to come and set up their shop and have their communities be a home to the facilities and rural parts of Maine were slower to adopt. But we're starting to see that change in real time just by the licensing that were issue, issuing, seeing towns across Maine that haven't that weren't those early adopters slowly begin to opt in.

I mean, if you were to visit any of these facilities in Maine, a lot of them look like Apple stores versus what an old school perception of what a cannabis growth site might be. Right? Like, these are sophisticated lots of technology, they're professional businesses, and the people that are operating them are responsible actors They're proud of what they're doing. They're proud of their facilities.

And for the most part, they're trying to be, positive members of the community that they're in. So I think a lot of the work of not only launching the program, but the industry stakeholders themselves being a good example, you're gonna start to see things change or at least start to pick up as far as changing that perception of cannabis.

But for the most part, it's been received really well here in Maine. And in those spots that people may not necessarily be unsure, there's ongoing conversations between not only the office but all the other stakeholder groups in those places and spots, not necessarily from a place where OCP or or regulatory agencies advocating for opt in or or advocating that they make that leap and welcome these cannabis establishments, but at least giving them the information that we have, the giving them the education, giving them the numbers and data that can better inform their decision making, I think is an important piece That also will go a long way in helping change some of the perceptions that, individuals have of of what a cannabis market may be your horror look like.

Jeff Harrell: We'll be back with Alex and Eric Gunerson in just a moment.

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Well, back to our conversation with Alex Valvasorri and Erik Gundersen.

Alex Valvasorri: Clearly a lot has gone on, in the last two or three years. And, of course, a lot is happening now. You you recently left your post at OCP You've started ERG strategies. And so I'd love to kind of hear how that transition has gone so far. And I'd love to learn more about the work that you're doing in your new role?

Erik Gunderson: Yeah. No. I, after nearly four years back in October, I, I stepped down as, executor of director of Maine's Office Canvas policy, which believe me was not an easy decision to come to had an absolutely phenomenal team over there. Again, when we were established in February of two thousand nineteen, it was literally just me.

And when I left, we were just shy of forty staff working in all different divisions and all working, in the same direction to make sure that we were executing and administering responsible cannabis programs. So it was tough to leave, especially after nearly a decade in state service, It's been a great transition. I feel like at points I've been shot out of a cannon. Right?

And part of the decision making was I've done a lot nearly everything I set out to accomplish. And I really like the creating aspects. I like the policy development. I like developing regulations and best practices and the administrative stuff after four years, we got a little bit old.

So making this transition where I can work with my former colleagues other state agencies across our country, no matter where they are in, a life cycle of a cannabis program, whether they're thinking about legalization, whether they're about to implement a new program, whether they're refining what their cannabis program looks like after x amount of years Certainly, I think the experience that I have can be helpful, in any number of ways. So that's really what drives me as being able to, to help out other cannabis regulators across the country. Like, they're a very small group of people.

Some of the most dedicated public servants you have ever met going through this insane experiment that no one's gone through before, and certainly there's a camaraderie that doesn't exist in other groups of people and they have a fantastic organization in Canada, which I was a founding member of. But still, that doesn't replace the the the twenty four seven can be on the ground. Questions, comments, concerns, strategy, developing operating plans, legislative brilliance, developing communication plans, agency initiatives, So that's really what drives me is continuing to do that type of work, but offering that that expertise to my former colleagues and others that have yet to become cannabis regulators across our country, and doing that really important work.

Alex Valvasorri: And, Erik, you mentioned you mentioned CANNRA, the CANNRA  regulators association for our listeners who maybe aren't familiar with Canora. Tell us more tell us more about that organization.

Erik Gunderson: Yeah. CANNRA is the organization for cannabis regulators across our country. It wasn't really a it what well, it wasn't established in two thousand nineteen when I became a cannabis regulator At that point, it was, called the cannabis roundtable where every year or twice a year, all the states that have cannabis programs would get together and talk about the issues of the day. What what is everybody seeing? What is everybody facing the challenges, and talking those through and trying to be a resource to one another in the time that I served as Executive Director of OCP that, it grew really quickly and then evolved into this this association camera, which still has the goals and objectives kind of what I explained. And it's just a phenomenal group under phenomenal leadership such a resource such a resource to regulators across the country.

Alex Valvasorri: Interesting. It it really is a great organization and for our listeners who haven't already checked it out. We had the pleasure of having Andrew Brisbo and Julian Shower on a couple months ago. Be sure to check out that episode.

If you wanna learn more about the tremendous work, the CANNRA is doing.

Erik, going back to your new role as a consultant, I'd love to get into some specifics, and it's great to hear your enthusiasm and passion for supporting agencies across the country, because there's a lot of new questions that come up anytime a new state is coming online. And a topic we read a lot about in the media is social equity. I know this can be a really sensitive topic.

States have taken a wide range of approaches to, to to tackle this issue. So first, for our listeners who maybe aren't familiar, if you could take a moment to walk us through kind of what social equity means, And then also if there are best practices or models that you're seeing that might work well in new markets.

Erik Gunderson: Yeah. So the topic of social equity and equity is such an important conversation to have no matter where you are, again, the life cycle of a cannabis program, I think the conversation of legalization should really be seen through the lens of equity and social equity, but to your point, what does it mean or to your question, what does it mean? And that's hard to answer because what equity may mean in Maine is different what it's going to mean in California versus what it's going to mean in the mid Atlantic So really first understanding what equity means, where you are, and how to incorporate that, not just into the regulatory system or specifically licensing, but even how to incorporate equity programs outside of the regulatory agency, outside of licensing, States are generating a lot of tax revenue.

I know they have a lot of priorities, but certainly needs to be, thought about, how to effectively spend that money in order to address these address equity because it's important. It's so important to incorporate it in some way, shape, or form into these programs. But I think this is also at another really good place to have, like, significant stakeholder engagement. What How can states appropriately or most effectively have these programs incorporated?

A lot of states have done a lot of different things and a lot of them are super interesting and exciting to see the results of them, but these are conversations that you can't sit in a high tower or your office and draft up what a social equity or equity program is going to look like. You need you need to have those types of conversations to effectively execute it. But, yes, anytime you have the conversation around legalization, it should be, equity, social equity should be Probably the largest slice of the pie when talking about when we talk about legal legalization in general.

Alex Valvasorri: Yeah. Absolutely. And I think your point is a good one that where the program is geographically, where in its development cycle. Right?

These are all the factors that are at play. And I think you know, we have yet to find that one size fits all. Right? I think it's really important to to to meet folks where they're at and do what you can.

So, that that's all very interesting to hear. Another topic that we hear a lot about is hemp, Delta A THC, DVD, DVD, right, people generally are familiar with THC, the in intoxicating compound found within a cannabis, but there's a lot more than just THC in cannabis and in hemp. Right? And so this this becomes a a very blurry topic.

I think states all over the the country are trying to figure out, how to wrangle this. And it's complicated by the fact that some of some of these byproducts of hemp, for example, are intoxicating.

So what are you seeing today, and and what do you think is the right path to help, put some guardrails around some of these, emerging molecules, so to speak?

Erik Gunderson: Yeah. When talking about hemp, my mind directly goes to the intoxicating hemp derived cannabinoids. Those are the ones that really present the public health and safety issues and should be top of mind for, I mean, not only regulators, but policy makers in all of these states about how to address it. This is a great area where the federal government could be incredibly helpful with trying to figure out regulatory pathways specifically, specifically for those, intoxicating hemp drive cannabinoids.

But again, that's such a challenge, such a gray space. It came on so quickly. You've seen this mesh work plan to address these from state to state. It looks they all look different.

There's no one that that seems to be working better than others. And like I said, the regulators in these states always seem to be the first ones to to go through these new challenges. And, certainly, this is one of the bigger ones in trying to figure out how to interpret what's hemp, what's not, both from place of the farm bill, but also within your state and how to address it. This is not an easy one.

And, again, this one could be a little bit easier next year with the updated farm bill to help states address some of these quite honestly dangerous products that are on store shelves and gas stations are being sold over the internet, but I don't think there's necessarily or I can't think of necessarily one state that's done a really good job at addressing it. But, certainly, we need to put some constraints, again, on these intoxicating products, these hemp derived products that present a real significant sort of threat to public health.

Alex Valvasorri: Right. Right.

Well, it sure sounds like you're, your hands will be full looking at next year and the years beyond. Right? Until we have some clearer guidelines from the feds or elsewhere. This is this is not a topic that's going to be solved overnight.

You know, we've talked about issues, presenting regulators. I I wanna change gears for a second and speak to maybe some of the licensees and operators that might be listening today. You know, if you had to offer any advice to the industry, and it's great to hear that you're working OCP, you guys had such tremendous collaboration with the industry. What are things that industry participants and licensees can do to better interact with regulators and to make the life of regulators easier.

Erik Gunderson: First, I don't think it's necessarily the industry's job to make the life of regulators easier. I think regulators can do things to make the life of regulators easier, and that's trying to figure out a way to have that collaborative relationship with specifically the industry stakeholders.

There's a life cycle between having a good relationship with your industry stakeholders you're developing a program and launching a program, but there is there is a point where it becomes that it can be a little bit of conflict. Right? You're talking about a regulator and a regular regulate tea. Is that even a word?

Those that you regulate and there's gonna be natural conflict there. Regardless of what you do, But to have that collaborative nature, to have that two way dialogue, putting systems in place in order to maintain that dialogue, So twenty twenty two at OCP before I left, we had really doubled tripled quadrupled down on our stakeholder engagement. I think we had actually four, five different stakeholder initiatives running on parallel tracks with different stakeholder groups to make sure that we were being the best regulatory agency, regulators, possible, and in order to do that, in order to achieve that goal, you have to have those conversations So certainly having stakeholder initiatives directed at industry partners, whether it's just generic or around a specific issue can make basically achieving your goals as an agency, maybe a smoother pathway.

I don't wanna say easier, but a smoother pathway. And just having that dialogue is so beneficial that I mean, if I'm talking to  a new regulator talking about stakeholder engagement, is a large percentage of the conversation, and a lot of the times you just kinda see their eyes gloss over because they understand what stakeholder engagement is. They understand just like the inherent value in stakeholder engagement, but it's hard to actually, like, bring one and two together to say this is how it's gonna benefit you. But when you see it in real time, I can't stress enough as a former can cannabis regulator how important that stuff is.

And specifically at the Office Cannabis policy, we actually had essentially two full time staff that did our stakeholder engagement programming. That's how important we thought it was. But that's certainly one thing that regulators can do to make their lives easier.

Alex Valvasorri: I love the way you put that regulators making regulators life easier.

I think I think that's a good way of putting it.

You know, only moments ago, Erik, you talked about the role of federal government. Right? And to date, right, there has not been, the traction that many in the industry have hoped for out of Congress. As we look to the next few years, right?

Obviously, there's a lot in the news just this week and this month. But in your opinion, you know, how do you think about the role of the federal government in regulating cannabis? Needless to say, Not no two state cannabis markets are alike. There are certainly more and more standards and, similarities, but there's quite a bit of difference as we as we look from state.

So, you know, how do you see the federal government fitting into this? And if you could deliver a message to Congress, what would be the advice you'd give them?

Erik Gunderson: Oddly enough. I I've I think about this a lot.

For one thing that I would tell Congress, oh, there's a lot of things that I would wanna tell Congress, but if there's one thing, as you go through this process, make sure that state regulators have a seat at the table. They are the ones that pioneered this They're the ones that deal with this day in and day out and have been for a while. And for the most part, a lot of them have done a really good job with the resources they have and the hand there they've been dealt So to making sure that they are at the table, having the conversations about a way that the federal government can come in and help state cannabis programs, not upend state cannabis programs, but help state cannabis programs, set a floor, set standards for a lot of different things that would help stay calm in this regulators, whether you're talking about standards for testing.

Testing standards are different from state to state from testing lab to testing lab because there are no standards set, and regulators do the best they can to make sure that whatever technology a lab is using or whatever process that there's good data, well, one going in and coming out, but standardizing that having a a federal agency or organization put that together would be incredibly helpful. Along with packaging requirements and labeling requirements, setting a floor, helping bring bring clarity to that, there are a lot of different areas where they can they can set those standards to help with predictability from date market to state market to help basically give some political coverage to state regulators around some of these things But, yeah, have have regulators at the table, helping them walk through what role the federal government should be playing, and help direct them to areas that would certainly be beneficial to regulators and cannabis programs across our country.

Alex Valvasorri: And I would imagine specifically topics we hear a lot about today, right, access to banking, at the forefront.

So crystal ball time, Erik, if you if you had to take a guess here, Do you think we're gonna see safe banking or something like safe banking past year during the lame duck session?

Erik Gunderson: No. Don't do this to me.

Yeah. I'm always a pessimist when it comes to this stuff. I feel like with safe banking, it's Lucy in the football. And I have my own thoughts, but I don't want to be the one to put negative thoughts and vibes out into the universe.

So we'll go ahead and say sure. Yeah. It's gonna get done this year. And I sincerely hope it does too because as a former regulator, you think about it.

Sure. It would be nice and convenient for the industry to have bankings, be able to access a loan But I see it more as, a public safety issue. You're always worried that you're gonna have one of these incidents happen in your state within your program and you know that, safe could help address that or head that off. So I think of it as a public safety issue first.

So let's hope let's hope that it passes.

Alex Valvasorri: So, you know, Erik, this has been a great conversation. And clearly, the role of a cannabis regulator is not easy. And having a healthy sense of humor is probably one of the many ways to survive a job like this. And in preparing for our discussion here today, I noticed that your LinkedIn profile said that You used to do stand up comedy. So you gotta joke for us here today?

Erik Gunderson: I did. I did used to do stand up comedy. I actually did it for a for a while. It was a nice outlet, and I really enjoyed it.

And, actually, to tell you the truth, it was helpful in so many different ways serving in the role of executive director of a cannabis agency just in engaging with the public, engaging with stakeholders, engaging with the legislature, and always not taking your too seriously. But no, I'm gonna I'm gonna refrain from sharing a joke because I don't know if my old jokes that I told years ago are appropriate. I'm more I'm more now into dad jokes having two kids and become of become an old man. So, any dad joke out there is good in my book.

Alex Valvasorri: Yeah. Yeah. Good. Well, Erik, it's been a real pleasure speaking with you today, and, thanks for joining us.

Erik Gunderson: Yeah. No problem. I appreciate the invite. And, hopefully, we'll get to talk again sometime.

Alex Valvasorri: Thanks, Erik.

Jeff Harrell: Well, I hope you enjoyed that conversation to true subject matter experts around this growing issue, pun intended.

Jeff Harrell: Well, again, thanks for joining us. We have lots of episodes planned for the Tyler Tech podcast for the remainder of twenty twenty two. And can you believe we are moving quickly into twenty twenty three. So please subscribe.

Jeff Harrell: Again, thanks for joining us. My name is Jeff Harrell, Director of Marketing with Tyler Technologies, we'll talk to you soon.