How to Address Recidivism with Silas Deane III

Tyler Podcast Episode 56, Transcript

Our Tyler Technologies podcast explores a wide range of complex, timely, and important issues facing communities and the public sector. Expect approachable tech talk mixed with insights from subject matter experts and a bit of fun. Host and Content Marketing Director Jeff Harrell – and other guest hosts – highlights the people, places, and technology making a difference. Give us listen today and subscribe.

Episode Summary:

Episode 56 looks at the problem of recidivism. What is it? How high is it in the US, how does it compare to other countries, and how can it be addressed? We tackle all those questions and more with Silas Deane III. Silas is the founder and Director of Tyler Technologies' Community Readiness.

Transcript:

Silas Deane:

What we're doing is not revolutionary. What we're doing is connecting incarcerated people to job opportunities and resources. We're providing them an opportunity for responsibility, if they want to take it.

Jeff Harrell:

From Tyler Technologies it's the Tyler Tech Podcast, where we talk about issues facing communities today and highlight the people, places in technology, making a difference. My name is Jeff Harrell. I'm the director of content marketing here at Tyler and I appreciate you joining me. Well, the problem we are looking at today is recidivism. What is it? How high is it in the United States? How does it compare to other countries and how can it be addressed? But we tackle all those questions and more with our guest today, Silas Deane III. Silas is the founder and director of Tyler Technologies Community Readiness and you'll learn more about what that is in this episode. But after traveling to over 50 jails across the country he recognized a lack of access to outside resources for incarcerated individuals. Now this prompted him to look at ways to change the incentives of the corrections industry. I learned a ton in this episode. I think you'll find this topic fascinating. Here's my conversation with Silas Deane III. Well, I'm here with Silas Deane III. Silas, welcome to the Tyler Tech Podcast.

Silas Deane:

Thanks so much, Jeff. I'm like so happy we're finally able to do this.

Jeff Harrell:

We are in person in what's kind of a makeshift studio here in the Tyler Tech headquarters in Plano, Texas. So excited to be across the table with you.

Silas Deane:

Yeah. We've talked about this for a while and I'm happy to be here. Some great ambient lighting going on so we'll have a good conversation.

Jeff Harrell:

Yes. Absolutely. And you're Silas Deane III, which leads me to ask the question, there sounds like there's got to be a second and maybe a first. Tell me a little bit about your family and your name history.

Silas Deane:

There are 16 of us.

Jeff Harrell:

Oh my goodness.

Silas Deane:

I know. I somehow, it looped back around after like five, but many of you all might know my dad, Silas Deane. He's the CEO of VinEngine, Resident Resources.

Jeff Harrell:

Yep.

Silas Deane:

But it actually goes all the way back to the founding fathers. If you Google Silas Deane, Silas Dean the original comes up as the first ambassador to France from the United States.

Jeff Harrell:

Oh wow.

Silas Deane:

He was best friends with Benjamin Franklin and was sent over to France to help negotiate during the Revolutionary War. He ended up lending his personal ships to the French to help us defeat the British, which is why we are our country today.

Jeff Harrell:

That's awesome.

Silas Deane:

So in his honor, someone in my family has always been named Silas. Creates a lot of confusion on our email addresses though.

Jeff Harrell:

That's true. So we're going to call you Silas III. Does that work for you?

Silas Deane:

S3. Silas.

Jeff Harrell:

Oh, S3 is even better.

Silas Deane:

Yeah. Just don't call me Shirley.

Jeff Harrell:

That's right S3. Well, S3 we're super excited to have you here and we're going to talk a lot about the product and the solution that you represent, but I always like to start with the problem and the problem we're really going to look at today is it's a hard word for me to say, you say it much better than I do, recidivism.

Silas Deane:

Yeah. You got to roll the R.

Jeff Harrell:

You got to roll the R. Tell us a little bit about what does that mean and why is it such a big problem?

Silas Deane:

Yeah. Recidivism is when an incarcerated person ends up committing a crime again and recidivating back into the facility. So if you were to commit a crime, you were to get arrested, you're released. Once you are released it's the rate in which you're rearrested back into the facility itself.

Jeff Harrell:

And you find yourself back in jail or prison and I think, correct me if I'm wrong, the recidivism rate in the United States is quite high.

Silas Deane:

Yeah. It's one of the highest in all of the industrialized countries and the short term recidivism rate of three years is about two in three individuals.

Jeff Harrell:

Wow.

Silas Deane:

So, 66% of individuals who have committed a crime and are released will end up recommitting a crime and ending up back in the facility. And that number goes even higher as the highest rate is 83% for the nine year recidivism rate.

Jeff Harrell:

So let me just make sure I understand. So within, so someone becomes incarcerated, they are, they serve their sentence. They're released. And in nine years there's an 83% chance they'll be back.

Silas Deane:

Yes. 83% of those individuals will come back to the facility or have another run in with the law that they're doing some kind of crime.

Jeff Harrell:

And I guess my question then is why is it so high? Do we think the United States relative, because I know you've visited other countries, you've seen that rate be lower. What's the thought in terms of why it's so high here in the States?

Silas Deane:

Yeah. So I was just in Scandinavia, I was just had the opportunity to go tour a facility in Norway and Scandinavia gets thrown out there a lot as examples for different things. But what's really interesting specifically about the Scandinavian model is that they recidivism rate is around 20% and shockingly it has nothing to do with the technology in the facility. Their technology is actually far behind what we have in terms of the access to communication. But what I've realized, the reason they have a 20% recidivism rate is the way that they treat the incarcerated people while they're in that facility. They see them as individuals and as human beings rather than as people who need to be punished for something that they've done.

Jeff Harrell:

That's interesting. I served on a jury, several, it was a couple of months ago now, and that was one of the questions that the, as they were doing the jury selection and you're sitting in the jury room, that was one of the things that they asked each jury, do you look at the justice system as rehabilitation or punishment or deterrence? And it was interesting to hear the answers. And I was wondering what answer are they wanting to hear? But this idea of rehabilitation is interesting because I think as you just pointed out where you see that being the focus you tend to see, I don't know if you may ask statistics that prove this out, but you certainly saw it in Norway. You see that recidivism rate go down.

Silas Deane:

Yeah. And I think it is really a shift in how you look at the incarcerated individuals. Do you see them as people who have committed crimes and therefore should have no options available to them because they've chosen that path? Or do you see them as individuals who are human beings and I think both have some validity actually. And what we're trying to do is not give anybody anything, but rather provide the opportunity for responsibility for those individuals who are incarcerated.

Jeff Harrell:

And talk to us a little bit about that because I think that's really what the meat of what we want to talk about is you developed an application in the focus and we talked a little bit about this before we hit record. I've got four kids and I feel like my responsibility as a parent is to provide an environment in which my kids can thrive, but I don't want to do it for them. I do want to set them up for success. I want to give them the tools, give them the options, give them the opportunity to thrive and that might look like job prep or education or whatever, but they've got to do the work themselves. Otherwise, they, it doesn't feel like it's something they're going to take seriously or personally or they always had something done for them and so they don't know this personal responsibility. And that's a lot about what you're trying to do with your application.

Silas Deane:

Yeah. Let me tell you a story. So when I started this project, I started driving around to jails. Like I said my father founded VinEngine so I was surrounded by this space. I would go on the weekends and do some installs for them to pick up little beer money while I was in college, in jails. And so while I was traveling from jail to jail across the country, I started realizing there was no resource lists that they would provide to incarcerated people. I've told this story a million times, but it still stuck with me so much that there was one jail in particular in Louisiana that we went to and I asked the jailer, hey, could I get a list of resources that you provide to the incarcerated people? I wanted to see what they had.

Silas Deane:

The sheriff looked at me in the eyes and he laughed and he said, "Son, we don't have any resources. We stick them on a bus and we send them to New Orleans." And that's the prevailing sentiment that I kept hearing in all of these different facilities as I would travel from one to the next and eventually over 50 and it shocked me. It starts begging the question, how do you expect these people to change and the answer is they don't, they don't expect them to change. They expect them to come right back into that facility and if you are somebody who's incarcerated, how are you going to change if there's no opportunity for you? The better jails quote unquote that I went into would have a list of resources handwritten from 2015 that says employers, Dominoes.

Silas Deane:

No contact information, no how to apply there, no where it is, just go to Dominoes and they'll, they might give you a job. These individuals have no or a lot of them don't have any training on how to get a job, how to interview. They don't have any clothes. They don't have any money. 50% of them don't have bank accounts. 50% of them don't have identification and so how do you expect them to change? And they don't and so what we're trying to do is not give them anything, but rather create that bridge to provide those opportunities for them to take if they want to.

Jeff Harrell:

You talked about resources, let's dig into that because I think when people hear resources, different things might pop in their mind. You just hit on a few of them, which would be opportunities for employment, opportunities for banking, things like that. What are some of the major resources or access to resources that are important to someone that's getting out of the jail system?

Silas Deane:

Yeah. Well, there's so many. I mean, just think about if it were you sitting in that cell and now you're walking back into reality, into the real world. You've been in a system that has a perpetual motion where everything is laid out for you and designed. Well, once you leave that facility, well, now you need a bank account. You need money, you need family, 20 to 30% of them have severe mental problems that they're dealing with. 70% of them have substance abuse issues that they need to deal with. Most jobs won't even look at you for seven years after you've had a felony, at least. And like I just stated 50% of them do not have bank accounts, which means they can't get government assistance. They can't get jobs, they can't pay for anything and they don't have government issued ID, which also prohibits them from getting those things as well. And those are all prohibitive factors on top of the lack of education infrastructure that was there for you when you were younger and it sets up a recipe for questioning how you'll be successful.

Jeff Harrell:

It feels like you walk out of this facility and you're already at a disadvantage because of all the things you just said. It's not like, okay, I'm starting my life over. I'm back to square one. You're really not. You're kind of, you're behind because you don't have the ID. Don't have the bank account. You don't have even the access to a lot of these things. So tell us a little bit about VinEngine because a lot of people may not know and there's a new name for VinEngine now. It's-

Silas Deane:

Resident Resources.

Jeff Harrell:

Resident Resources.

Silas Deane:

Yeah.

Jeff Harrell:

But tell us a little bit about what that is because you mentioned it before and some people may not be that familiar with it.

Silas Deane:

Yeah. So Resident Resources, formally VinEngine, was a company my father founded back in, I think they're on their 11th year now. Essentially they provide a software infrastructure in the facility that initially was there to decrease corruption in the jails. So how it typically would work before VinEngine or Resident Resources started was a family member would walk into the facility and they would put a hundred dollars on Jimmy's books in cash. Having millions of dollars in cash sitting in a jail isn't necessarily a great idea. So they worked with a company called Tennessee Business Enterprise to provide an infrastructure for the payments and the cloud based services in jails. And they have now grown to 500 jails across the country. They provide commissary services and banking services and trust accounts and grievance services to facilities across the country.

Jeff Harrell:

That's very cool and so you obviously, you're living with your dad, you're seeing his business, you're in this space kind of indirectly. How did you go from being there to identifying this problem we just talked about, this idea of recidivism and then going, I need to figure out a way to solve that?

Silas Deane:

Yeah, well again, it goes back to me needing beer money in college. Ultimately that is what it is and what we're doing is not revolutionary. What we're doing is connecting incarcerated people to job opportunities and resources. We're providing them an opportunity for responsibility if they want to take it. And maybe it was my naivety as a young child, but I was like, why doesn't this happen? Why can't they go get a job or why can't they get connected to a transitional house? Why is this difficult? I go to facilities and it's handwritten papers and an overworked staff person who is doing incredible work on the ground, but has no support system in order to provide any resources to these incarcerated people and is typically one person at the jail running around getting them signed up for stuff.

 

Silas Deane:

And I honestly just COVID hit and was like, why is no one doing anything about this? And then COVID shut down the ability for these organizations to get into the jail. And so then it got even worse because now these organizations can't access these individuals that they used to, of going into the facility, getting metal detectored and patted down and sitting there waiting for them. Well, that's already an inefficient system, but now it's even more, now they can't even get access to those people. So for two years incarcerated individuals had extremely limited access to resources on the outside. Then you're released and expected to just figure it out.

Jeff Harrell:

I wonder then, so you identify the problem. What's your next step? What you go, hey, I got this, I have an idea. Where did you turn at that point?

Silas Deane:

Yeah, it started, hey, why don't we put some of these resources on the app? VinEngine has an application where if your brother's in jail you can go on their application, you can deposit money to him anywhere in the country, which is a huge benefit to them because now they have more commissary money, which before you would have to physically drive to the jail and again hand them cash in order to get this done.

Jeff Harrell:

So you've used technology to solve that problem.

Silas Deane:

Yeah. And so I'm like, well, we have two to 3 million people a year using this app, depositing money to incarcerate individuals. People on the outside, some of them are the similar demographic. They're giving money to their friends who are incarcerated or their family members. Why don't we just provide them some resources? So Bernard Salandy, who is one of my close friends of VinEngine, incredible man who was a jailer at Rikers Island and Rutherford County. He was on the board of a organization called The Family Center and so we made a connection with them and put them on the app and got huge response from people who were in the community using the app.

Silas Deane:

They all of a sudden had a huge spike in people signing up for their services. So we're like, well, why stop there? And so Bernard and I, and Dan Van Den Bosch as well, helped a lot with this is started just driving around and collecting lists and putting it online and then Tyler acquired VinEngine and through the awesome insight of Mandy Robinson and then Rusty, and some other people here saw potential in this and wanted to create an application. So now it's Tyler Technology's Community Readiness and so we're launching across the country with this community readiness module and application to provide these services directly to these individuals and the clients of Tyler products across the country.

Jeff Harrell:

It sounds like at first you just got scrappy and said, let's put some resources on the app and see what happens and it, and you got a favorable response.

Silas Deane:

Yeah. To be honest, I didn't know it was going to become this. And at first I was like, well, what even is this, I-

Jeff Harrell:

What is this thing I'm creating?

Silas Deane:

Yeah. I didn't know. I was just like driving around being like, why are there no resources anywhere? And I was like, why are we doing this? And Bernard looked at me and he said, he's like, "Son, focus on what you're doing for the individual and the rest of it doesn't matter." He's like, "It will all work out if you focus on what you can provide to those incarcerated people." And he's been right every single step of the way. I look and I'm like maybe we need to do it like this so that we can, and he, in the back of my head his perspective on we need to provide the best service to the incarcerated people that we can is the key and so my whole mission and goal is to provide actual services and opportunities to incarcerated people that does not exploit them, but rather sets them up for success post-incarceration.

Jeff Harrell:

And it sounds like that focus and it goes back to helping people. When you help people and you help solve a big problem like this, everything else just kind of falls into place.

Silas Deane:

Yeah.

Jeff Harrell:

Have you seen that? So you had some initial success with this in a first one. Have you seen it then kind of spiral where other people are interested in doing this sort of thing?

Silas Deane:

Yeah. I mean, it's gotten huge right now where we need a lot more help. So if you're interested hit me up, but I have an awesome employee, Becky Frese, who works with me, who does awesome work, but we've absolutely taken off faster than I can really handle. We have more interest in this product than we can physically move on and it's all because we're focused on what we can provide to the individual, to the incarcerated person and to your community as a county and as a facility and as a jail staff. We're not focused on that other stuff. Everyone in this industry is focused on how much money can we take from this facility or provide these services here. Our entire focus is how much good can we provide to the individual.

Jeff Harrell:

That's so great. Well, talk to us a little bit about, I know you said lots of interest more than you can even handle, but I think you are in some locations. Talk to us a little bit about that.

Silas Deane:

Yeah. So we, our first beta client was in Davidson County, Nashville, my hometown.

Jeff Harrell:

All right.

Silas Deane:

Yeah. Music city.

Jeff Harrell:

I love Nashville.

Silas Deane:

Nashville's awesome. I love it. So we launched there. They have an incredible staff there. Believe it or not, Nashville's actually one of the most progressive in terms of criminal justice and opportunities that they provide to incarcerated people. The governor in Tennessee is one of the most progressive in terms of actively working on criminal justice reform. So we've had incredible support from the Davidson County facility, Paul Mulloy there, and some others at that facility have done incredible work with the incarcerated to really set them up for success. So they were an incredible first partner for us and we have Kiosk live in that facility that incarcerated people can walk up to, they can click on the resource project, soon Community Readiness, click on transitional homes or job opportunities or mental health support or whatever they need post incarceration. They can fill out applications, they can schedule video interviews, they can have communication and have that need waiting for them when they leave that jail. And they were the first one, but we're now live in Silverdale, which is Chattanooga, Tennessee.

Jeff Harrell:

Awesome.

Silas Deane:

And Gadsden Florida, which is Tallahassee. We're working with the women's prison there and we will soon be launching also in Licking County, Ohio, which is Columbus, Ohio, Memphis, Fulton County, Atlanta, hopefully some here in Texas and are quickly spreading across the country too. Our goal is to launch in every facility. So, but right now we're in some major ones across the Southeast.

Jeff Harrell:

What are the constraints that you have? You mentioned probably personnel resources on your end to help kind of carry the, but other considerations that you have, or someone listening to this going, oh, I'm super interested in this, how do I get more information? How do I get involved? What would be the next step?

Silas Deane:

Yeah. Well, please contact me. If you're listening to this and you're interested in creating a change for these individuals, please contact me and I would love to have a conversation with you, but also we need a lot of help. This isn't just our software. We're trying to really change the culture of incarceration in America. To look at these individuals as really shift it from a cycle of recidivism, to a system of rehabilitation. And that starts at the individual level and works all the way up to the state and federal level. We really need some help with quantifying data on this.

Silas Deane:

We really want to show the counties what the positive benefits of setting the incarcerated people up for success can do for their county. I recently read a article that said for every $1 that a facility will spend on education, the county saves about $5 in long term effects of including societal costs and tax costs and various costs that they would face. There's so many ways to attack this, this problem. It's such a large issue. We're just trying to carve off one little piece, but if you're interested in this please reach out to me. I would love to talk to anybody.

Jeff Harrell:

And what's the best way for them to do that. Is it emails, social media, what's the best way for them to do that?

Silas Deane:

Follow me on Instagram.

Jeff Harrell:

Yeah, that's great.

Silas Deane:

heysilas, H-E-Y-S-I-L-A-S or send me an email at silas.deaneiii, is a 3. Horrible email address. silas.deaneiii@tylertech.com.

Jeff Harrell:

That's D-E-A-N-E.

Silas Deane:

Yes.

Jeff Harrell:

.iii.

Silas Deane:

No, no, no.

Jeff Harrell:

No dot in between the e and i.

Silas Deane:

silas.D-E-A-N-Eiii.

Jeff Harrell:

Got it.

Silas Deane:

@tylertech.com.

Jeff Harrell:

Got it.

Silas Deane:

Rolls off the tongue.

Jeff Harrell:

I will put a link in the show notes as well of this podcast. That's awesome. Well, you can hear the heart behind what you're doing. It's really awesome and it sounds like such a win-win. It's a win for the incarcerated individual. It's a win for the community. You just mentioned the cost savings that you can see. I think a lot of people are taking notice of what's going on. You, I know you're a humble guy, but you just received a pretty significant award. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Silas Deane:

Well, thank you. Yeah. Recently just received the Leadership and Innovation Award from the National Association of Community and Restorative Justice. Really honored to receive that award. They're a huge organization doing great work in terms of community and restorative justice.

Jeff Harrell:

Yeah.

Silas Deane:

Really honored to receive the Leadership and Innovation Award for the work we're doing here and that's just the beginning. We're just starting to get some big national traction on what we're doing and I think what it does hopefully is legitimize the movement that we're trying to create in looking at this problem differently than how it's previously been seen.

Jeff Harrell:

Well, I love it. Again, I just think when you care about people, all the other things, the business, all the other things kind of tend to fall into place. And I think you've started to see that, but like you said, there's, this is just the tip of the iceberg, I suppose, in terms of the work that needs to be done, the partnerships you need to probably create, the people that need to be involved in something like this. So if you have interest, if this is something like, man, this really resonated with me. I'm sure you want them. Reach out.

Silas Deane:

Please. In any way. Like if you work at a church that does work with incarcerated people, if you have a friend who works at a transitional home or if you volunteer actually going in and doing prison ministry into a place, or you know someone who's formally incarcerated, I mean, please, you know, reach out and we need all the help we can get because this is a big issue.

Jeff Harrell:

It's a big problem. Yeah.

Silas Deane:

Which affects everybody. I don't know if you know this, but as many people in America have a criminal record as a college degree.

Jeff Harrell:

Oh my goodness. I did not know that.

Silas Deane:

It is, it affects almost everyone to some degree in this country. Becky and I are doing everything we can, but you know this is the beginning and luckily we have an awesome team at Tyler behind us and Tyler's been so supportive of actually looking at this problem different and saying, hey, we have a real opportunity here to make a change in the world. Not only get products in place, that's great, but we actually have an opportunity to change the world and to shift the vision of the future of America and I mean, how can you not get passionate about this when you hear about somebody who has been successful post incarceration. I was telling you earlier on my Uber drive over here, I sat in the car with a guy and I had my suitcase in the car and I was talking to him and he ended up asking me what I did and I told him that starting this software for Tyler.

Silas Deane:

And he, he told me he was incarcerated for six months for selling six grams of weed. He had a federal offense at 20 years old. He was a felon and post-incarceration he got out. He was very fortunate and had a family that was able to help him get a job as a janitor at a community college, which was the only person who would, they were the only people who would hire him. I mean, he was in college and then got arrested and then the only place he could get a job at was a janitor at a community college. But his story and he's been out for 10 years and now he's driving for Uber. He was so happy to tell me that he's engaged and he's getting married in a month. And he was like, oh, it's not, I'm not really successful or anything. I'm like, dude, that success right there. The fact that you went through that and were able to create something post-incarceration that didn't end you back there, you're starting a family. You're creating a life for yourself.

Silas Deane:

I mean, how can you not get passionate to see that just a little bit of help, help somebody get out of that situation. And he was telling me that he had a friend that he met, he just saw a couple days ago on the side of the street, had a sign that said, I will work for a room or food and sitting on the side of the street. That's the story of most of these individuals. The one that I met in the Uber while he is doing incredible now, compared to where he was and the spiral that he went down through depression post-incarceration, he had a support system, but a lot of these people don't, and we're trying to provide that infrastructure so that that guy who is sitting on the street, who doesn't have an infrastructure can at least if he wants to take responsibility for his own life and create a path forward.

Jeff Harrell:

And just have access to options.

Silas Deane:

Yeah.

Jeff Harrell:

That's great. Well, Silas, I appreciate your leadership in this, your heart, your vision. Congratulations on your award. And my guess is this is our first of many conversations about this topic. I think we could probably talk for hours about it. I know you're passionate about it. You could talk for hours. We're going to have you back if you don't mind and we'll talk about some of the things that are happening in this space and some of the successes that you're seeing and more than that, the individuals that it's impacting. I think, like you just said, it's about the people. When you hear those individual stories of success, where there's an opportunity, they seized it and they're really thriving. That's what it's all about.

Silas Deane:

I would love to come back and have more... As you know, I could talk about this forever. We talked about this for like two hours before we got on here, but at the end of the day this isn't my story to tell.

Jeff Harrell:

That's right.

Silas Deane:

This is these incarcerated people and so I hope to bring some of them on this podcast.

Jeff Harrell:

Absolutely.

Silas Deane:

And talk about their stories and how we can take their lives and create opportunities for them and a path forward for millions of people across this country.

Jeff Harrell:

Awesome. Love it. We'll we'll definitely have you back. Appreciate your time.

Silas Deane:

Thank you so much.

Jeff Harrell:

See you S3.

Silas Deane:

Bye.

Jeff Harrell:

Well, what an interesting topic and super amazing work that Silas is doing in this space and by the way, today Tyler Technologies Community Readiness is launching in over 500 facilities. It's integrating with court systems to enable more successful data and reentry across the United States. So just love the work that Silas is doing. And by the way, Silas has also launched a podcast called America Unmuted, which really shares the stories and ideas from leaders making changes and those affected by the criminal justice system in America. So definitely check that out. Well, really appreciate you joining the Tyler Tech Podcast. We drop new episodes about every other week. So make sure you subscribe. We've got a lot of great topics plans tackling a lot of really important problems in the public sector. So again, thanks for joining me. My name is Jeff Harrell, director of content marketing here at Tyler Technologies. We'll talk to you soon.